EU referendum

[steviemc]

What is best for us, is for other nations to enter into decent trade agreements with us. We can't get that by telling the rest of the world to fuck off then expect them to do us any favours.
Like it or lump it, we aren't the big cheese in the world any more, and a little humility isn't just a good thing, it's an absolute necessity. That's not to say we shouldn't stand up for ourselves, but you HAVE to care what other countries think - they're the ones we're trying to negotiate with.

I find it interesting that the argument for remaining in the EU can shift so readily from 'European' to 'worldwide'. If we're talking worldwide, outside of the EU we would be in exactly the same position as the US, China, India and Japan, all of whom have absolutely no problem exporting to the EU. Any suggestion that remaining EU members will form some kind of embargo towards UK imports is pure scaremongering folly. It would never happen.

We should be the big cheese in the EU, but we have very little clout. We're on the losing side of the voting table a far higher amount of times than any other member state. Quite simply - we are shafted on most occasions by Germany. Germany are, in fact, the member state least likely to vote the same way as the UK.

 

[steviemc]

If we think the EU is bullying us, then heaven help us when we try and deal with the USA, China and Japan on our lonesome. Will they take pity on us and not bully us?
Are we really saying we're weak enought to be bullied by the EU, but strong enough to go it alone and not be bullied?

I think you need to be more precise. When has being a member of the EU ensured that the UK hasn't been bullied by the above-mentioned countries? In what way, specifically?

 

[cibaman]

We can hold a national referendum whenever we like. There is no constitutional barrier to it. Regardless of the result, parliament is no obliged to go along with the results of a referendum.
Of course we wouldn't actually hold another so quickly, but we COULD.

The same argument "its now or never" was used during the Scottish referendum campaign. But does anyone think that their referendum ended the debate for a generation? It would only take the oil price to recover and a consistent lead for Yes in the polls and they'll be back at the polling booths.

Assuming the vote isn't overwhelming to Remain (eg 65/35) then a second referendum will be held if there is further treaty change aimed at political integration, if there are any attempts to make the UK join the Euro, if additional financial burdens are placed on the UK, if Turkey is allowed to join the EU, etc, etc

There is no prospect of a Tory PM ever agreeing to any of those steps without a referendum. They'd be out on their ear the moment they suggested it. And, with increasing numbers of Eurosceptic Labour voters, A labour PM would be unable to simply push through further integration without a referendum.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Aus and nz trade with the pacific rim and look to China, Korea and Japan as the main trading partners, TPP is done and as the US Pivots away from Europe towards the Pacific increasingly the biggest trade will be Pacific not Atlantic based. In Asia the population is younger , economies are growing , infrastructure is better , education standards are higher and that's the problem for the UK and Europe it was the centre of the world it increasingly isn't .

Thanks EalingBlue2

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Father-of-three Harry Bopari said:
‘I have no GP as they are all full in my area, I can’t get on the housing ladder and have three kids in one room.

'The place where I grew up was once a lovely area but it is now a no-go zone. How is the EU and uncontrolled immigration working for me, a 40-year-old Brit who has been working full time since the age of 16?’

Mr Cameron responded: 'I would say really frankly that if we want to build houses, if we want to invest in our health service, if we want good schools for our children, we have got to strengthen and safeguard our economy.

'Coming out of the single market, which is what the Leave campaign want to do, that would damage our economy.'
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So strengthening the economy is going to find Harry Bopari a GP, will allow him to buy a larger house (when there are house shortages), and will turn the sh!t hole that he now lives in that was once a lovely area into a lovely area once again. Oh dear Dave, you won the argument didn't you. The truth is that any extra wealth that comes into this country will end up in the hands of the few. It won't be going to the NHS as that nurse tried to explain or to poor old Harry Bopari.

Yes there shortages of GPs in areas but do you seriously believe that a 40 year old father of three hasn't been able to access a GP?

Where I am, I stuck with the Practice a couple of miles down the road when I moved house. It's in a poor area of town but you get seen fairly quickly and they don't worry too much about charging for jabs etc when you go on holiday.

Many GPs have extended opening hours and run open slots when it is first come first serve for say one hour in the morning.

If this guy had really tried his family would have access to a GP!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Everyone doesn't agree it will make the economy worse in the long term, that is basically a mistruth, the last vote on Europe was in the 70's so we can't deal with it later especially as only ukip as a party is against it, we didn't make a mistake as such last election we just had a really poor opposition. If we stay we are going to get austerity,mass immigration,restricted public services and an undemocratic Europe.

our immediate future is the eu and the tories, I would say that is a shame, but some on here deserve it

The current Tory Government will be considered left wing in the future if we vote out. There are plenty of good arguments on both sides of the debate but I'm afraid that isn't one of them. Gove and Bojo are coming next (and possibly Farrage). Let's just admit this if we are being truthful!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

The reason is simple in the unlikely event that we vote out no party could sign an agreement for trade that involves free movement of people, it would be suicidal, this has been discussed but the lie continues, it wouldn't happen

So the EU will just sign a free Trade Agreement with us if we vote out (with no free movement of EU citizens! Maybe they will factor in the leaders of the out Campaign mocking their countries and jacking in the EU?

 

[Blue Hefner]

In an age where Uber don't own care, Air BnB don't own hotels and Twitter doesn't have any journalists on its staff etc

Surely it is better to be independent and have the ability to be more agile in an ever changing world of technology, security and business etc rather than have to arrive at agreements with 27 other nations with different cultures and agendas?

 

[FanchesterCity]

I find it interesting that the argument for remaining in the EU can shift so readily from 'European' to 'worldwide'. If we're talking worldwide, outside of the EU we would be in exactly the same position as the US, China, India and Japan, all of whom have absolutely no problem exporting to the EU. Any suggestion that remaining EU members will form some kind of embargo towards UK imports is pure scaremongering folly. It would never happen.

We should be the big cheese in the EU, but we have very little clout. We're on the losing side of the voting table a far higher amount of times than any other member state. Quite simply - we are shafted on most occasions by Germany. Germany are, in fact, the member state least likely to vote the same way as the UK.

Nobody has suggested any embargo - certainly not on this forum. That's not the point / concern of anybody supporting 'in' - the concern is that the deal we have will be no more and thus we will have to renegotiate with the EU - and we won't get as favourable terms. Trade will still happen, of course it will, but if the terms aren't as good, then there will be a knock on effect - in terms of prices / jobs / a change of investment strategy.

Of course countries outside the EU manage - but we're the 5th biggest economy being inside the EU and Germany is the 4th largest, also within the EU, so by that measure the EU is hardly crippling us either. We're unlikely to get to third any time soon and Japan is a good way ahead of us with twice the population we have.

 

[cibaman]

The current Tory Government will be considered left wing in the future if we vote out. There are plenty of good arguments on both sides of the debate but I'm afraid that isn't one of them. Gove and Bojo are coming next (and possibly Farrage). Let's just admit this if we are being truthful!

Not only will it be more right wing, it will also be totally pre-occupied with dealing with the consequences of Brexit. The economy, health, education etc will not get a look in.

 

[Monkfish]

Hmmm and allCameron could do was continuously bang on about our strong economy. So strong it won't survive without the EU.

Come on BJ, I didn't watch it but know his exact word was the UK 'survive' outside the EU

In an age where Uber don't own care, Air BnB don't own hotels and Twitter doesn't have any journalists on its staff etc

Surely it is better to be independent and have the ability to be more agile in an ever changing world of technology, security and business etc rather than have to arrive at agreements with 27 other nations with different cultures and agendas?

Airbnb 60 employees
And agile businesses can relocate very easily, one of the problems with leaving a trading block

 

[Monkfish]

Not only will it be more right wing, it will also be totally pre-occupied with dealing with the consequences of Brexit. The economy, health, education etc will not get a look in.

That's my main reason for wanting to stay,I want a centrist government, we vote leave and Labour are finished, I get the feeling the Tories might become the new left and God knows what will be an the right of them but it will be scary

 

[FanchesterCity]

I think you need to be more precise. When has being a member of the EU ensured that the UK hasn't been bullied by the above-mentioned countries? In what way, specifically?

The EU had added tariffs on China subsidising steel imports into the EU (including the UK). It has also protected some of our products such as Cheddar Cheese, Melton Mowbray Pies etc. It has ensured consistent consumer protection and safety standards for goods imported from those nations but purchased across Europe. It has forced some US companies to adjust their products for the European market and prevent having bundled add-ons forced upon us. It has provided support for SME's to trade with China which is notoriously difficult otherwise.

As it happens the UK voted against the EU's measures to prevent China flooding Europe with subsidised steel thus artificially lowering the value of steel. The UK voted to prevent the EU raising the tariff on China to 66% - that did our steel industry no good. Essentially the EU saw the problem and we didn't (or ignored it).

The alleged reason we blocked it was that we were trying to court business from China, this did their bidding in the EU and vetoed the tariff increase. Whilst it might not be the sole cause of failed steel industry in the UK, it didn't help it - nor have we seen any benefits from courting China.

The US went further still and imposed 266% tariffs on China to prevent it flooding the USA with subsided steel.

Seems like we knew best.

 

[Chancy Termites]

You can't vote for the UK law makers either.
You don't vote for the House of Lords, and you don't vote for the courts.
You vote for SOME law makers who make some laws (statute) but not common law.

On top of that, some of the directives from the EU have been good ones. Whilst some of our own laws have been very poor ones. It's not all good on one side and bad on the other.

House of Lords doesn't propose, write up or introduce any laws. It merely looks at and sometimes tinkers with the laws that the house of commons creates.

That makes a massive difference. It's why in UK elections you get politicians saying "vote for us and we'll do x, y and z", but in EU elections you don't. MEPs don't say that because they can't actually bring in any new laws. They only reform legislation, like the house of Lords does. Commissioners don't say it because they do bring forward the new laws, but nobody is allowed to vote for them; they're above democracy.

Some of the USSR's laws were good ones too, and the same goes for China. It doesn't mean we should aspire to their political system. In the end, populations that can't vote for law MAKERS are always worse off and nearly always end up in a violent uprising against their unelected governments.

 

[FanchesterCity]

House of Lords doesn't propose, write up or introduce any laws. It merely looks at and sometimes tinkers with the laws that the house of commons creates.

That makes a massive difference. It's why in UK elections you get politicians saying "vote for us and we'll do x, y and z", but in EU elections you don't. MEPs don't say that because they can't actually bring in any new laws. They only reform legislation, like the house of Lords does. Commissioners don't say it because they do bring forward the new laws, but nobody is allowed to vote for them; they're above democracy.

Some of the USSR's laws were good ones too, and the same goes for China. It doesn't mean we should aspire to their political system. In the end, populations that can't vote for law MAKERS are always worse off and nearly always end up in a violent uprising against their unelected governments.

The House of Lords can draft bills and propose them too. Either way, half of our approval / disapproval process is via unelected people. I don't have a problem with that personally, but I'm highlighting the misleading impression that somehow all of our laws are from elected MP's when they aren't.

You can see an extensive list of bills proposed by the House of Lords here:
http://services.parliament.uk/bills/

Those proposed by the House of Lords have [HL] in their title.

In addition to that, Private Bills can be proposed by unelected individuals or bodies (of course they still need to go through both houses, but again 50% of those are not elected).

On the matter of adopting a political system just because it produces some good laws - I agree, it would be ludicrous to do so, but it's also wrong to think that everything those nations (or indeed the EU) does is bad.

I don't like that the EU Commission is the only body that can propose law, but that's all it can do - propose them. Nor am I 100% comfortable that they are unelected commissioners (1 for each member state) - on the other hand, the commissioners are put in place by elected governments who we have entrusted to do our business and represent us. We don't vote on the Chancellor, or Secretaries of State either. Regardless, it may appease some Euro sceptics if we specifically voted for our Commissioner (and other nations did likewise).

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

That's my main reason for wanting to stay,I want a centrist government, we vote leave and Labour are finished, I get the feeling the Tories might become the new left and God knows what will be an the right of them but it will be scary

I think the best way we can have a centrist government is labour get their shit together and Corbyn goes. When is he appearing on one of the live debates to make the case for leaving, I will be interested in that.

The European Parliaments have very extreme parties, fascists and communists. In the uk we tend to have moderate politics thankfully.

 

[stonerblue]

House of Lords doesn't propose, write up or introduce any laws. It merely looks at and sometimes tinkers with the laws that the house of commons creates.

That makes a massive difference. It's why in UK elections you get politicians saying "vote for us and we'll do x, y and z", but in EU elections you don't. MEPs don't say that because they can't actually bring in any new laws. They only reform legislation, like the house of Lords does. Commissioners don't say it because they do bring forward the new laws, but nobody is allowed to vote for them; they're above democracy.

Some of the USSR's laws were good ones too, and the same goes for China. It doesn't mean we should aspire to their political system. In the end, populations that can't vote for law MAKERS are always worse off and nearly always end up in a violent uprising against their unelected governments.

Snoopers charter?

 

[Blue Hefner]

Come on BJ, I didn't watch it but know his exact word was the UK 'survive' outside the EU



Airbnb 60 employees
And agile businesses can relocate very easily, one of the problems with leaving a trading block

I said hotels, not employees

I suppose my point is, the world is breaking with tradition and keeping options open, i would say, is key. To be part of a block that has differing interests, cultures and agendas and core beliefs could make keeping up with the modern world more difficult

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

So after the vote, the out wins 51% to 49% theres a fair bit of huffing and puffing Cameron consoles himself by making love to Merkel as a final goodbye then we are still in Europe for I would guess a good couple of years while ties are severed in that time Juncker the all powerful builds his Euro army on German money as Germany has pretty much bankrupted the rest of Europe. First thing they invade UK and make it Europe again or as I like to call it Germany

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Hmmm and allCameron could do was continuously bang on about our strong economy. So strong it won't survive without the EU.

Forget about the past...and trying to compare the economy of today, with what the world was like 30 years ago.....The fact is, we've grown to be the 5th largest economy while "in" the EU and no amount of opinion and guess work can guarantee that would have happened if you were out of the EU....if we going to blame the EU for the problems, we've got to give the EU the credit, that during the time we've been apart of the single market, Freedom of movement and fee movement of goods, we've become 5th largest economy...Thats not me trying to twist the truth to suit my view....thats reality...You are risking that for the unknown, without having a scrap of proof it will get any better and infact in the short term its going to get worse.......I dont have a closed mind but do have a rational one....Rational thinking looks at the risk/reward......and you only take the risk of damaging the 5th largest economy if you know what the rewards are.....Fix local Government and you improve this country....voting out the EU and keeping the same leaders, same poorly run Government in place means you will not see any of the benefits you hope for.....