EU referendum

[ChicagoBlue]

If out wins a second referendum will be inevitable and we will end up having referenda on bloody everything as we will have set the precedent of undermining our established parliamentary democracy and giving politicians the chance to abdicate responsibility for everything. That said maybe technology means we can have an app and vote on everything 1 vote each day from 10-1030

But, I thought you said that if we could just get our shit together and have this vote in a few years...???! Methinks you were jesting, huh?!

Btw, when you discuss "set the precedent of undermining our established parliamentary democracy and giving politicians the chance to abdicate responsibility for everything," you are almost EXACTLY describing the overbearing approach the EU is taking to its nation states...even though you appear to want it to mean NOT VOTING FOR YOUR OWN FUTURE...which, last I checked, was almost the definition of that pesky democracy thing you were talking about!

Horrible when what you explain what it is you really want and what you have said you want is the exact opposite, isn't it?!

I would suggest that you just want Europe, and whatever that means, your, my, and everyone else's actual democratic votes notwithstanding.

No doubt you will get what you want (no Brexit), but democracy will lose...parliamentary or not.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It was exactly the same in the republican debate in Aus, the Scottish nationalist vote etc. Voters for change are a lot more vocal, a lot more dramatic and a lot more loud and proud. Voters for the same partly because they don't need to and partly because they don't want a lecture or deep chat tend to be quieter and just let their vote do the talking. People in Scotland talked about it seeking like 90% were pro independent based on discourse

People fear change. People feel safe with the status quo. People don't like being made to feel afraid for the their future by the "great unknown," especially when it is spouted ad infinitum by those in power. It is logical, regardless of whether it is intelligent or right. Agents for change always have to make their case, and when the established bullhorn of "democracy" is set to 10 and in opposition, it often makes the uphill struggle seemingly impossible. That is a shame, but that is politics.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Cameron is of no interest to anyone looking to the future of the UK, Europe and the relationship each has with the other.
Just a matter of time before he stands down, either this year or next.
A complete dead man walking.

Agreed, he told us that himself. Do you think for one moment he would have called a referendum if he had any intention of trying to remain in N.10at the next election.

Quite frankly, like the rest of tenure in office I don't he gives a fuck, him ans Osborne are just playing at it. When it all goes tits up, they'll shrug their shoulders and fuck of to several high paid city non exec directorships and take their places in Brussels.

 

[EalingBlue2]

But, I thought you said that if we could just get our shit together and have this vote in a few years...???! Methinks you were jesting, huh?!

Btw, when you discuss "set the precedent of undermining our established parliamentary democracy and giving politicians the chance to abdicate responsibility for everything," you are almost EXACTLY describing the overbearing approach the EU is taking to its nation states...even though you appear to want it to mean NOT VOTING FOR YOUR OWN FUTURE...which, last I checked, was almost the definition of that pesky democracy thing you were talking about!

Horrible when what you explain what it is you really want and what you have said you want is the exact opposite, isn't it?!

I would suggest that you just want Europe, and whatever that means, your, my, and everyone else's actual democratic votes notwithstanding.

No doubt you will get what you want (no Brexit), but democracy will lose...parliamentary or not.

Listen I am not against referenda per se I just think if you have one , then another it could become habit forming. I don't agree with this one now but I do accept if significant change happens to the country such as when we went in, if we went into the euro or if we left the EU there should be one. If there is though it should have been a vote on a known, or we leave , this is the deal we leave for, this is how we exit and we have already seriously understood the consequences. I am not personally a lover of them MPs should decide but I would not oppose one in those circumstances. The truth of this one is it was entirely about short term Tory politics not the good of Britain which is why it's a mess and why the consequences either way will be more negative than they needed to be.

As I have said before I believe in greater federalism even globalism where it benefits and think a global currency and tax regime to be inevitable in my lifetime. With that I see more power to the regions and even cities where that benefits. saying democracy works best at the UK level is completely an unsustainable argument it is an arbitrary size and democracy and government structure can work best for different things at different sizes. In many ways it's what the US does better than Europe (though there are many things it doesn't).

 

[EalingBlue2]

People fear change. People feel safe with the status quo. People don't like being made to feel afraid for the their future by the "great unknown," especially when it is spouted ad infinitum by those in power. It is logical, regardless of whether it is intelligent or right. Agents for change always have to make their case, and when the established bullhorn of "democracy" is set to 10 and in opposition, it often makes the uphill struggle seemingly impossible. That is a shame, but that is politics.

You base that assumption that change is always good - it sometimes is and it often isn't. People who voted for Mandela voted for change but so did people who voted for Hitler and both Martin Luther King and the KKK did too.

 

[EalingBlue2]

At least you get a vote on whether it is the Tories or Blair Part Deux! With the EU, you get to like it or lump it, but not choose it! Something wrong with THAT version of "democracy"!

Democracy is going to be the end of western liberal society as democracy is going to bankrupt our world as we know it, democracy is short term and deeply damaging to the planet and the future. That said I wouldn't swap it as the alternative is worse, I just wish we could work out how to fix democracy before it kills itself

 

[BigJoe#1]

Listen I am not against referenda per se I just think if you have one , then another it could become habit forming. I don't agree with this one now but I do accept if significant change happens to the country such as when we went in, if we went into the euro or if we left the EU there should be one. If there is though it should have been a vote on a known, or we leave , this is the deal we leave for, this is how we exit and we have already seriously understood the consequences. I am not personally a lover of them MPs should decide but I would not oppose one in those circumstances. The truth of this one is it was entirely about short term Tory politics not the good of Britain which is why it's a mess and why the consequences either way will be more negative than they needed to be.

As I have said before I believe in greater federalism even globalism where it benefits and think a global currency and tax regime to be inevitable in my lifetime. With that I see more power to the regions and even cities where that benefits. saying democracy works best at the UK level is completely an unsustainable argument it is an arbitrary size and democracy and government structure can work best for different things at different sizes. In many ways it's what the US does better than Europe (though there are many things it doesn't).

IF and I accept its a BIG IF, we vote to leave there is a huge possibility we will be asked the question again BUT only if the EU come to the UK with a significant offer for reforming itself which will put the UK into a much stronger negotiating position than Cameron enjoyed earlier this term. Whoever the PM is at that time will have a major dilemma, especially if it's Boris. As I posted earlier I think we are in a terrible position because regardless of whether we're in or out after the 23rd we are to all intents and purposes a busted flush.

It is interesting to note that Cameron has changed his stance significantly. He is now saying we have a strong economy and are in a healthy enough state to survive should we vote to leave. I do find that to be a bit well.... I won't use the word disingenuous but let's say strange.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Democracy is going to be the end of western liberal society as democracy is going to bankrupt our world as we know it, democracy is short term and deeply damaging to the planet and the future. That said I wouldn't swap it as the alternative is worse, I just wish we could work out how to fix democracy before it kills itself

Agree, surely that has to involve PR so that all of us can believe our vote really counts. I accept that means we will have to live with permanent coalition governments which, for sone [the two major UK parties] may just be a step too far.

 

[steviemc]

Listen I am not against referenda per se I just think if you have one , then another it could become habit forming. I don't agree with this one now but I do accept if significant change happens to the country such as when we went in, if we went into the euro or if we left the EU there should be one. If there is though it should have been a vote on a known, or we leave , this is the deal we leave for, this is how we exit and we have already seriously understood the consequences. I am not personally a lover of them MPs should decide but I would not oppose one in those circumstances. The truth of this one is it was entirely about short term Tory politics not the good of Britain which is why it's a mess and why the consequences either way will be more negative than they needed to be.

As I have said before I believe in greater federalism even globalism where it benefits and think a global currency and tax regime to be inevitable in my lifetime. With that I see more power to the regions and even cities where that benefits. saying democracy works best at the UK level is completely an unsustainable argument it is an arbitrary size and democracy and government structure can work best for different things at different sizes. In many ways it's what the US does better than Europe (though there are many things it doesn't).

Ah but...the truth of democracy on our forum says the absolute contrary. According to our poll it suggests that the majority think your ideals are unsuitable or at least unsustainable for the foreseeable. You either trust democracy or you don't. You can't advocate democracy on the basis of 'as long as it agrees with my views'. To do so either refutes democracy or presumes that one 'knows better' than anyone else. That's exactly why politicians fuck up so often.

I think at this point I can comfortably rest my case ;-)

 

[EalingBlue2]

Ah but...the truth of democracy on our forum says the absolute contrary. According to our poll it suggests that the majority think your ideals are unsuitable or at least unsustainable for the foreseeable. You either trust democracy or you don't. You can't advocate democracy on the basis of 'as long as it agrees with my views'. To do so either refutes democracy or presumes that one 'knows better' than anyone else. That's exactly why politicians fuck up so often.

I think at this point I can comfortably rest my case ;-)

If there was a region that was 90% male probably an even higher % white , a very high % teen to 60 and 99% city fans you would have a great point that place only exists virtually though but if you want to ban posts from non British EU citizens unless they have passed a skills test them work on it with @Ric

I advocate democracy but I think it will cause the death of itself!