EU referendum

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Is dredging up a 5 year old article really your best shot, with 3 days to go? Really?

how is it pathetic, does it not count unless its from the past week ? its a valid point

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

How is voting to Remain allying myself with people who want to privatise the NHS?

Because you'd be allying yourself with people that are already selling it off bit by bit: i.e George Osbourne and David Cameron.

And, crucially, you'd be fundamentally voting to stay in an EU which is currently pushing through the TTIP deal, which will undoubtedly see the NHS suffer further privatisation over the coming years - especially in the context of the increasing burden placed on the NHS via the record numbers from net migration which is growing every year and we can't address in the EU given the freedom of movement principle.

The EU trade commissioner, Cecilia Malstrom, literally said she "doesn't take her mandate from the European people" - in reference to the widespread protests over the TTIP deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html

That is who you'd be backing should you vote remain.

As I said, it's not as straightforward as many people have tried to make it appear Mac. Either way you're allying yourself, in some way or another, with unsavoury characters.

But I don't think extreme minorities on the leave side should be used to stain the broad range of people who are supportive of Britain leaving the EU, and nor should it undermine what is an enormous political opportunity for real positive change.

 

[EalingBlue2]

For all those saying it's just rabid right-wingers who want out, have a read of this:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/pa...socialists-support-neoliberal-undemocratic-eu

It's published under a Creative Commons licence so I think I'm free to quote liberally from it.


And to prove members have little freedom of action: This adds to what I was saying earlier, that's it's much easier to close UK factories than those in other EU countries as Tata's European business has stayed largely unaffected. So it's hardly a level-playing field even though we're in the EU. We make it easier for companies to shut plants yet the EU ties both hands behind our back if we want to rescue them.

And for those who don't accept that the EU has prolonged austerity, it's an EU rule that budget deficits can't exceed 3% of GDP, meaning the classic Keynsian model of running a deficit in a recession in order to stimulate growth, can't be deployed.

And for those who still maintain that the EU is some sort of workers paradise, the author says this:


And finally, the author repeats what I've been saying all along, about further political integration being a necessity. This is painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain.


There is no "status quo" or "safe option" in this decision. It's either get out or go much further in. And if it's the latter, things are going to get much worse as fr as political extremism goes. Why do you think the EU wants its own army? Probably so Brussels can order French troops to put down riots in Austria or Greece.

Not all people who want out are rabid right wingers, the very old school SWP left seem to be leave. But every rabid right winger is a leave supporter and they are dominating the out voice. This is what will prove decisive , posters like Farages copied from te nazis poster show the middle who they are with and that scares people

 

[EalingBlue2]

Because you'd be allying yourself with people that are already selling it off bit by bit: i.e George Osbourne and David Cameron.

And, crucially, you'd be fundamentally voting to stay in an EU which is currently pushing through the TTIP deal, which will undoubtedly see the NHS suffer further privatisation over the coming years - especially in the context of the increasing burden placed on the NHS via the record numbers from net migration which is growing every year and we can't address in the EU given the freedom of movement principle.

The EU trade commissioner, Cecilia Malstrom, literally said she "doesn't take her mandate from the European people" - in reference to the widespread protests over the TTIP deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html

That is who you're backing should you vote remain.

As I said, it's not as straightforward as many people have tried to make it appear Mac. Either way you're allying yourself, in some way or another, with unsavoury characters.

But I don't think extreme minorities on the leave side should be used to stain the broad range of people who are supportive of Britain leaving the EU, and nor should it undermine what is an enormous political opportunity for real positive change.

If leavers don't speak out against their rabid right then they will get tarnished by them rightly or wrongly. They have made the call do they stay silent for Brexit unity or do the right thing.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

If leavers don't speak out against their rabid right then they will get tarnished by them rightly or wrongly. They have made the call do they stay silent for Brexit unity or do the right thing.

Britain First lunatics do not represent the leave campaign, at all, and you know this. Commenting on them publicly would give them the spotlight, and unnecessarily draw actual links in the press.

It's the remain supporters who have tried to use tiny and irrelevant groups like them to try and tarnish the image of the leave campaign/leave voters.

And while they're an irrelevant fringe group that have the grand scheme of fuck all to do with the bigger picture, the actual reality of a remain vote is standing side by side with George Osborne and the neoliberal globalist elites in charge, and in favour, of the EU.

Which means, a future for the working class that is guaranteed to get leaner. It means the continued depression of living standards for the working class and low skilled workers. It means the NHS will continue to be squeezed, and slowly privatised, and the social services and infrastructure of this country will continue to be burdened by immigration we can't do anything about - and the only people to really benefit will be corporate big business. It means a greater, and continued, burden being placed on schools, and a further stagnation in social mobility - which Britain's already represents one of the poorest in the entire developed world.

It means becoming part of the TTIP deal.

It means being a mere cog into a globalist's wet dream and a future EU superstate.

It means not having full control over our longterm future as a country.

That is what a vote to remain fundamentally is, never mind the "what about some of the people who are in favour of a leave vote" rhetoric, that's fundamentally what voting remain means for the future of working people in this country, and who a remain vote supports and emboldens.

 

[YPhrunts]

Because you'd be allying yourself with people that are already selling it off bit by bit: i.e George Osbourne and David Cameron.

And, crucially, you'd be fundamentally voting to stay in an EU which is currently pushing through the TTIP deal, which will undoubtedly see the NHS suffer further privatisation over the coming years - especially in the context of the increasing burden placed on the NHS via the record numbers from net migration which is growing every year and we can't address in the EU given the freedom of movement principle.

The EU trade commissioner, Cecilia Malstrom, literally said she "doesn't take her mandate from the European people" - in reference to the widespread protests over the TTIP deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html

That is who you'd be backing should you vote remain.

As I said, it's not as straightforward as many people have tried to make it appear Mac. Either way you're allying yourself, in some way or another, with unsavoury characters.

But I don't think extreme minorities on the leave side should be used to stain the broad range of people who are supportive of Britain leaving the EU, and nor should it undermine what is an enormous political opportunity for real positive change.

You only have to look at EU Trade Commissioner Cecila Malmstrom to see this level of contempt for ordinary citizens, when voters of all political persuasions throughout the EU, rail against the unpopular TTIP deal. Over here there has been opposition from everyone from the TUSC, to Corbyn, Burnham and McDonnell, the RMT and ASLEF, Unite, The Greens, Lib Dems such as Charles Kennedy, large swathes of UKIP, Tories such as Peter Lilley and Zac Goldsmith, the BNP, Plaid, many SNP members and so on.


Cecilia Malmström’s boast that she ‘does not take her mandate from the European people’ was added to this week when she told the EU Business Summit in Brussels that she has no intention of submitting TTIP or CETA to public approval. She has also stated that ‘local opposition is a menace to multilateral agreements, and that ‘We can’t have local referendums on all trade agreements if we want to be serious. If we do that, we can close the shop.’


That sums up the arrogance of those in power. The working class have had enough of being "collateral damage" in globalisation.'

 

[bluethrunthru]

Because you'd be allying yourself with people that are already selling it off bit by bit: i.e George Osbourne and David Cameron.

And, crucially, you'd be fundamentally voting to stay in an EU which is currently pushing through the TTIP deal, which will undoubtedly see the NHS suffer further privatisation over the coming years - especially in the context of the increasing burden placed on the NHS via the record numbers from net migration which is growing every year and we can't address in the EU given the freedom of movement principle.

The EU trade commissioner, Cecilia Malstrom, literally said she "doesn't take her mandate from the European people" - in reference to the widespread protests over the TTIP deal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html

That is who you'd be backing should you vote remain.

As I said, it's not as straightforward as many people have tried to make it appear Mac. Either way you're allying yourself, in some way or another, with unsavoury characters.

But I don't think extreme minorities on the leave side should be used to stain the broad range of people who are supportive of Britain leaving the EU, and nor should it undermine what is an enormous political opportunity for real positive change.

And Brexit allies you with people like Farage who last election had to defend video footage of himself saying the NHS free at the point of need should be closed and replaced by an insurance backed system ( I did kinda think that was what NI was originally about ) but hey ho damned if you do damned if you don't

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

And Brexit allies you with people like Farage who last election had to defend video footage of himself saying the NHS free at the point of need should be closed and replaced by an insurance backed system ( I did kinda think that was what NI was originally about ) but hey ho damned if you do damned if you don't

how does it ally you with that, its just one persons viewpoint. farage is never getting into power anyway. lunatics and nut cases are on both sides, it doesnt allie you with them.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Its official - tomorrow the Telegraph back Leave the Guardian back Remain - fuck me thats a shock Lol - I'll get the ball rolling for you all..... Titanic news anyone?

 

[bluethrunthru]

how does it ally you with that, its just one persons viewpoint. farage is never getting into power anyway. lunatics and nut cases are on both sides, it doesnt allie you with them.

In the same way voting Remain allies you with Cameron. I am Remain but never a Tory - this is an in/out thing not the party political issue its become

 

[CitizenTID]

I'm sorry, but thats a ridiculous decision to change your mind based on that. your aren't voting to leave because boris and farage are privileged. david cameron, osbourne, most remain politicians are toffs and part of the elite. near enough all politicians are. i think you were always going to vote remain.

I've been OUT for the month I've been considering it so far. As of recent, I just feel we're being played by the BREXIT campaign - false hopes, easy to get a large proportion of the nation on side through things like immigration and other false promises.

They don't give up power like that. 2 sects of elite playing off against each other is all it comes down to for me now, besides what i'm sure will prove to be superficial stuff.

 

[CitizenTID]

Ok, is someone able to answer for me: which vote will give the best chance of keeping the NHS state funded and preventing privatisation/poor healthcare?

Or does it really come to that... poor healthcare vs. privatisation? Or will neither prevent privatisation?

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

And Brexit allies you with people like Farage who last election had to defend video footage of himself saying the NHS free at the point of need should be closed and replaced by an insurance backed system ( I did kinda think that was what NI was originally about ) but hey ho damned if you do damned if you don't

No, that's precisely the point. Farage is a figurehead, one of several, for the short term result: which is a leave vote.

What I'm saying is that an out vote would be a play for a much broader and longterm vision of Britain. Which we can all have a say in. That's the point. Have faith in our electorate.

You need to look past discomfort around people like Farage and look at the much broader picture.

We know what we get with the EU, and we know that it's pretty fucking shit. And we all know that it's going to get worse as they'll become emboldened should we vote to remain.

 

[EalingBlue2]

No, that's precisely the point. Farage is a figurehead, one of several, for the short term result: which is a leave vote.

What I'm saying is that an out vote would be a play for a much broader and longterm vision of Britain. Which we can all have a say in. That's the point. Have faith in our electorate.

You need to look past discomfort around people like Farage and look at the much broader picture.

We know what we get with the EU, and we know that it's pretty fucking shit. And we all know that it's going to get worse as they'll become emboldened should we vote to remain.

Shit, I am afraid that's life and it's not going to be solved in or out. As Hobbes said life is Nasty, brutish and short - but it's all you've got

 

[bluethrunthru]

You couldn't make this up. Richard Branson, who has pleaded with voters to Remain in the EU, is moving part of his business to Switzerland. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Virgin-Switzerland-blow-British-economy.html

As ever with people like him and Dave "We're all in this together" Cameron, it's do as I say, not do as I do.

You mean like Brexit campaigners keep quoting James Dysons view we should leave - the same James Dyson who moved his production facility to Malaysia? Its do as I say not as I do.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Ok, is someone able to answer for me: which vote will give the best chance of keeping the NHS state funded and preventing privatisation/poor healthcare?

Or does it really come to that... poor healthcare vs. privatisation? Or will neither prevent privatisation?

directly I suspect neither directly influence, however one of my drivers to vote in is the breakup of uk, Johnson as PM and perpetual Tory rule - which will spell the end of the NHS. But that is long term Tory rule and not brexit to that is the danger

 

[bluethrunthru]

No, that's precisely the point. Farage is a figurehead, one of several, for the short term result: which is a leave vote.

What I'm saying is that an out vote would be a play for a much broader and longterm vision of Britain. Which we can all have a say in. That's the point. Have faith in our electorate.

You need to look past discomfort around people like Farage and look at the much broader picture.

We know what we get with the EU, and we know that it's pretty fucking shit. And we all know that it's going to get worse as they'll become emboldened should we vote to remain.

The broader picture is this time next year we are trying to negotiate our way out of the EU whilst somehow simultaneously trying to negotiate hundreds of trade deals across the globe. The pound has dropped in value so our trade deficit value has grown - petrol is more expensive - goods in the shops are more expensive- an I am worse off and potentially out of work. That is a little more than mere discomfort.

 

[Credo]

Changed my mind. I am in.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

You only have to look at EU Trade Commissioner Cecila Malmstrom to see this level of contempt for ordinary citizens, when voters of all political persuasions throughout the EU, rail against the unpopular TTIP deal. Over here there has been opposition from everyone from the TUSC, to Corbyn, Burnham and McDonnell, the RMT and ASLEF, Unite, The Greens, Lib Dems such as Charles Kennedy, large swathes of UKIP, Tories such as Peter Lilley and Zac Goldsmith, the BNP, Plaid, many SNP members and so on.


Cecilia Malmström’s boast that she ‘does not take her mandate from the European people’ was added to this week when she told the EU Business Summit in Brussels that she has no intention of submitting TTIP or CETA to public approval. She has also stated that ‘local opposition is a menace to multilateral agreements, and that ‘We can’t have local referendums on all trade agreements if we want to be serious. If we do that, we can close the shop.’


That sums up the arrogance of those in power. The working class have had enough of being "collateral damage" in globalisation.'

It sums up that until John Hilary releases the tape where she actually said those words we will never know, as she has denied saying that.
And before you respond with she would deny it, people would equally say he would put his slant on it.
At the moment it is one person's word against another.
The question i would be asking is if she has said it, why has he not produced the smoking gun?

 

[bluethrunthru]

It sums up that until John Hilary releases the tape where she actually said those words we will never know, as she has denied saying that.
And before you respond with she would deny it, people would equally say he would put his slant on it.
At the moment it is one person's word against another.
The question i would be asking is if she has said it, why has he not produced the smoking gun?

You'd have thought Brexit would want that to push them over the line - or maybe its just not that accurate a quote?