EU referendum

[BlueHammer85]

Changed my mind. I am in.

Good decision.

 

[yatesy94]

Can sense after events of last weeks tragic event the campaign & their scare tactics will just about edge it. Pretty disgusting if you ask me using this MP's death to fuel their agenda. I've seen a handful of people on Twitter put the blame Farage for the actions of one mentally unstable individual. You might think he's a knob but that's completely uncalled for.

Hopefully it'll be a historic day on 23rd July and we'll have the balls to vote leave. We're stuck in a rut if we decide to stay in the EU. Think its bad now...it's only going to get worse. Vote OUT.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Good decision.

In your opinion.

Truth be told, it appears @Credo is yet another that was had his will waned as a result of the incessant scaremongering from the increasingly anxious status quo. I think he'll eventually regret his decision.

Ok, is someone able to answer for me: which vote will give the best chance of keeping the NHS state funded and preventing privatisation/poor healthcare?

Or does it really come to that... poor healthcare vs. privatisation? Or will neither prevent privatisation?

The best vote to secure the future of the NHS, is to vote leave. That straightforward.

A leave vote will see an injection of money freed up in the short-term from the old EU budget (however great that will be will depend on the size of the dip in the economy post Brexit, but there will undoubtedly be money available to invest). It will see the burden from the vast immigration via freedom of movement greatly reduced, thus saving money and allowing it to be redistributed to struggling services within the NHS which need it the most.

A leave vote will allow us the potential for real, tangible changes. People fear the Tories being 'unrestrained' if we were out of the EU, but I think that's once more, fear mongering.

Out of the EU we'd have the freedom to truly exercise our democracy, a general election won't be long around the corner should we leave the EU, and the future of the NHS will be a central part of that. I trust our electorate to get it right.

Meanwhile, a vote to remain in the EU, is a vote to maintain the unrestricted freedom of movement, and thus the ever growing strain will be increased on an underfunded NHS - and to compensate, further privatisation will inevitably have to take place. This is a given. There is no disputing that.

Especially given that a vote to remain in the EU, is a vote to be part of the TTIP deal which the EU are currently negotiating in secret, behind closed doors.

Becoming part of the TTIP will be the final death knell of the NHS, and anyone who cannot recognise this is wilfully deluding themselves.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Can sense after events of last weeks tragic event the campaign & their scare tactics will just about edge it. Pretty disgusting if you ask me using this MP's death to fuel their agenda. I've seen a handful of people on Twitter put the blame Farage for the actions of one mentally unstable individual. You might think he's a knob but that's completely uncalled for.

Hopefully it'll be a historic day on 23rd July and we'll have the balls to vote leave. We're stuck in a rut if we decide to stay in the EU. Think its bad now...it's only going to get worse. Vote OUT.

Yep Vote OUT vote RECESSION - good call

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

I've been OUT for the month I've been considering it so far. As of recent, I just feel we're being played by the BREXIT campaign - false hopes, easy to get a large proportion of the nation on side through things like immigration and other false promises.

They don't give up power like that. 2 sects of elite playing off against each other is all it comes down to for me now, besides what i'm sure will prove to be superficial stuff.

i feel like we are being played by the remain campaign, threats - tax rises, world war 3, the end of everything as we know it. leaving the eu is the only way to control immigration though, of course they are going to use that. i just found your reasoning bizarre. if id have said i was going to vote in, but now I'm voting out, because someones reminded me david cameron is an elitist. it wouldn't make any sense.

i think its about more than the politicians we have now, its about the future of the country for the next ten, twenty 30 years and onwards. I'm not basing my decision on boris johnson or david cameron, I'm basing it on what i think is best for the future of the country. I'm young, and i think leaving is the best thing to do.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

The broader picture is this time next year we are trying to negotiate our way out of the EU whilst somehow simultaneously trying to negotiate hundreds of trade deals across the globe. The pound has dropped in value so our trade deficit value has grown - petrol is more expensive - goods in the shops are more expensive- an I am worse off and potentially out of work. That is a little more than mere discomfort.

The pound dipping is a red herring, it fluctuates routinely. No one is disputing that there'll likely be a short term dip in the economy should we get a leave result, but there is a dispute about how great a dip that would be, and there is absolutely no agreement that it would represent a recession. None whatsoever.

The question is whether or not you believe the short term hit is worth it for the longterm gain, and I'm entirely of the opinion that it is.

What's more, we'll likely spend circa two years negotiating our exit from the EU, and the EU has a specific charter to enable and legislate for the negotiation of an exit member state - precisely so that the economy of the leaving nation, and the EU itself, does not take a hit from the separation. To limit the acrimony and make it as smooth as possible.

This is not the end of days as many remainers try and present it. In my opinion, a leave result would represent a great period of broadening horizons and new opportunities - politically and economically.

I genuinely believe it's best for the future of this country, and people should not be blinded by party politics, or mere scaremongering from the status quo, when it comes to making such a landmark decision about the future of this country. This is a momentous opportunity for real positive change, and people need to recognise this through the fog and mud slinging.

 

[Pam]

Yep Vote OUT vote RECESSION - good call

It's utterly bonkers. It truly, truly is. But I think Brexit is in trouble, fingers crossed.

 

[Yaya_Tony]

Not mine but in tribute to Yep (Nopes) endless supply of pictures...

"We didn't fight two world wars to be ruled by Brussels/the Germans blah blah...."

I'm guessing, unless you are about 130 years old you actually didn't fight two world wars. I'm expecting that far from fighting any war, you've sat at home admiring your conservatory, and swallowing every euromyth Rupert Murdoch has fed you

You like the idea of "taking back control". You think leaving the EU will give you some kind of freedom. You haven't looked into the eyes of the people carrying those "taking back control" banners; Gove, Farage, Johnson. For some reason you think those guys have your best interests at heart? That they like alternative ideas? Or will allow you access to the truth? A free press? You do know that currently the UK is ranked 38th in the 2016 World Press Freedom Index? (Costa Rica, Ghana, Tonga and Uruguay all have a more independent media than the UK). That's how much our governing classes love freedom. They love their freedom (regulation-free) but not yours.

When they say "take back control", they mean; take control from Europe and give it all to them. The likes of Gove and Johnson and Rupert Murdoch. Journalist Anthony Hilton once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice."

Maybe the likes of Murdoch and Gove and Johnson and Farage want out of the EU because the EU has been the institution that has done most to give workers rights of employment. Many of the benefits and protections British people have at work are thanks to EU regulations, and there's zero chance the Tories would make maintaining those rights a priority in the event of #Brexit (see http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/25/workers-rights-are-on-the-line-in-eu-referendum-warns-tuc).

You need to know this; Murdoch wants more power and influence and the EU is standing in his way, Farage wants to privatise the NHS, even Cameron realised Gove was making a complete mess of being Education Secretary so sacked him; and Boris Johnson hates you.

The EU isn't perfect, far from it. But do you know what status Gove said the UK would have if we were outside the EU? He said we would be like Albania. He seemed to think that was a good thing (see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-britain-will-act-like-bosnia-and-ukraine-in-event-of-brexit-says-michael-gove-a6991711.html).

I know some people who live in, say Burnley, are brought up to believe that people living the other side of the hill, like, say in Blackburn, are somehow their mortal enemies. I wasn't brought up like that. I was brought up to believe our similarities are greater than our differences, that our common humanity is something to be embraced. The idea of retreating into an enclave, away from Europe, away from the world, disturbs me. We should be connecting to the world, building bridges and alliances (not retreating to a little England).

I'm voting #Remain because I'd hate the idea of living on an island with xenophobic leaders, fewer rights of employment, disappearing press and media freedoms, and an economy on a par with Albania.

Plus, I genuinely love being European. Take Boursin, for example. It's the eighth wonder of the world.

#Boursin NOT #Brexit.

Bit late, but what a quality post. Nice one mate.

 

[Yaya_Tony]

and because you're a sanctimonious snob.

That's bang out of order.

 

[Yaya_Tony]

But 'implosion' would come about through a many year drain and stress of propping up the Eurozone with us being continuously drained (don't be taken in my the claims of not be part / vetoes etc. - there are more than one way to skin a rich country as the EU proved last year).

This is our chance - when its gone - its gone

Good riddance. England, Britain, the UK are a European nation. That's the bottom line

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Bit late, but what a quality post. Nice one mate.

It's a terrible post, full of condescension and strawman arguments. It's centred around a complete mischaracterisation, and ultimately a lie, that leaving the EU equates to a parochial wish for Britain to become an enclave hidden away from the rest of the world.

He even managed to throw in a pathetic 'little Englander' jibe and somehow managed to compare our economy to Albania's.

If that's his case for remaining then I'm embarrassed on his behalf, likewise yourself for endorsing it. Weak.

 

[EalingBlue2]

There are many Brexiters who don't really want Brexit I suspect. Individuals whose politics is based on sniping, telling everyone what's wrong, talking things down but who fundamentally do not know how to engage constructively and drive positive outcomes . Very much like statler and Waldorf . If we did vote out we would need constructive positive leaders and this is the conundrum

 

[CitizenTID]

i feel like we are being played by the remain campaign, threats - tax rises, world war 3, the end of everything as we know it. leaving the eu is the only way to control immigration though, of course they are going to use that. i just found your reasoning bizarre. if id have said i was going to vote in, but now I'm voting out, because someones reminded me david cameron is an elitist. it wouldn't make any sense.

i think its about more than the politicians we have now, its about the future of the country for the next ten, twenty 30 years and onwards. I'm not basing my decision on boris johnson or david cameron, I'm basing it on what i think is best for the future of the country. I'm young, and i think leaving is the best thing to do.

That's a good point. I just worry what they'll do in the short term while they can. If the NHS was completely privatised, I can't see the option of overturning that being easy at all and very unlikely to happen.

I guess I'm just completely unsure which side I can trust if any. I've never taken an interest in politics, but after this last Tory election I know we need them out - I can't be doing with anyone who are so blatantly out for themselves and theirs rather than looking after the whole population. Obviously this referendum is a big deal so have tried putting more effort into trying to find the right decision.

EDIT: After reading about TTIP I'm voting OUT definitely. Fuck that. I've always had the impression Cameron is hiding something and him and Osbourne are puppets of corporations like Virgin wanting more and more and more, sacrificing the health and financial well being of the population. All about removing "barriers" such as reducing food safety rules to expand profit margins - fuck that!

I think Brexit is definitely the far lesser of the two evils. At least their campaign is promoting pumping money back into the NHS (the EU money) which suggests they're more likely to prevent privatisation.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Good riddance. England, Britain, the UK are a European nation. That's the bottom line

Of course we're a European nation, we're geographically part of the continent of Europe.

Your rationale seems to be that if you're not an EU member state, you're not a European nation?

Truly bizarre. Are Switzerland not a European nation because they're not part of the EU and have no wish to be?

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Can sense after events of last weeks tragic event the campaign & their scare tactics will just about edge it. Pretty disgusting if you ask me using this MP's death to fuel their agenda. I've seen a handful of people on Twitter put the blame Farage for the actions of one mentally unstable individual. You might think he's a knob but that's completely uncalled for.

Hopefully it'll be a historic day on 23rd July and we'll have the balls to vote leave. We're stuck in a rut if we decide to stay in the EU. Think its bad now...it's only going to get worse. Vote OUT.

No doubt using the death of Jo Cox (she has a name, not just "this MP") is disgusting and i have no idea why Brexit do it.
Pretending it was used a red flag and trying to deny a right wing nut job did it.
We have already seen the ultimate irony in BF denying it and then saying it was unfair to paint an entire movement on the actions of one person.
Farage trying to shift the re-rise of the remain vote on her murder, show what a classlass knob he is. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...el-farage-momentum-jo-cox-death-a7090126.html Yes i do think he is a knob and he is shifting the shortfalls of his contribution to the campaign on her death.
Anyhow interesting to see Arron Banks keeping the tone the of the debate in the gutter http://www.lbc.co.uk/leaveeu-backer-arron-banks-live-on-lbc-132549

 

[EalingBlue2]

No doubt using the death of Jo Cox (she has a name, not just "this MP") is disgusting and i have no idea why Brexit do it.
Pretending it was used a red flag and trying to deny a right wing nut job did it.
We have already seen the ultimate irony in BF denying it and then saying it was unfair to paint an entire movement on the actions of one person.
Farage trying to shift the re-rise of the remain vote on her murder, show what a classlass knob he is. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...el-farage-momentum-jo-cox-death-a7090126.html Yes i do think he is a knob and he is shifting the shortfalls of his contribution to the campaign on her death.
Anyhow interesting to see Arron Banks keeping the tone the of the debate in the gutter http://www.lbc.co.uk/leaveeu-backer-arron-banks-live-on-lbc-132549

If Brexit wins Farage is finished the only way is down and I suspect UKIP will be far better served by remain than Brexit. That is the dilemma for him as if he gets Brexit he will be the face for everything that goes wrong

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

No doubt using the death of Jo Cox (she has a name, not just "this MP") is disgusting and i have no idea why Brexit do it.
Pretending it was used a red flag and trying to deny a right wing nut job did it.
We have already seen the ultimate irony in BF denying it and then saying it was unfair to paint an entire movement on the actions of one person.
Farage trying to shift the re-rise of the remain vote on her murder, show what a classlass knob he is. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...el-farage-momentum-jo-cox-death-a7090126.html Yes i do think he is a knob and he is shifting the shortfalls of his contribution to the campaign on her death.
Anyhow interesting to see Arron Banks keeping the tone the of the debate in the gutter http://www.lbc.co.uk/leaveeu-backer-arron-banks-live-on-lbc-132549

Before she'd even died from her injuries remain supporters were using it as political capital against the leave campaign all over social media, the Guardian even had an editorial dragging Farage into a matter of hours later, so don't get all high and mighty here mate, it's highly transparent.

Her murder was used as political capital, that's fairly obvious. It even happened on this sub.

Her murder was a tragedy and no-one is supportive of the lunatic who took her life.

Now, with that said. Can we keep this thread on topic please? This thread is about discussing the pros and cons of leaving or remaining within the EU. There's a seperate thread for that very topic. Let's not have this thread descend into points scoring as we've seen before when that has come up.

 

[CitizenTID]

Changed my mind. I am in.

I was the same, changed my mind to IN until I found out about TTIP.

I'd highly advise anyone on the fence (and INers) to read this that don't know about it. Totally made my mind up on OUT because of this:

http://waronwant.org/what-ttip

...and my gut feeling I've had from the behaviour of Cameron and Osbourne they're hiding something and in the pockets of corporations wanting to enforce this. Of course they have all the "experts" paid up scaremongering too.

Absolutely no way i'm voting in!

 

[KenTheLandlord]

If Brexit wins Farage is finished the only way is down and I suspect UKIP will be far better served by remain than Brexit. That is the dilemma for him as if he gets Brexit he will be the face for everything that goes wrong

Fair point but here is another, a leave board member having been caught re-tweeting this sort of nonsense “Britain 2050: why didn’t you stop them Grandad?”
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-board-member-quits-over-anti-muslim-retweets
Riddled with them.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

I was the same, changed my mind to IN until I found out about TTIP.

I'd highly advise anyone on the fence (and INers) to read this that don't know about it. Totally made my mind up on OUT because of this:

http://waronwant.org/what-ttip

...and my gut feeling I've had from the behaviour of Cameron and Osbourne they're hiding something and in the pockets of corporations wanting to enforce this. Of course they have all the "experts" paid up scaremongering too.

Absolutely no way i'm voting in!

Glad you've seen the light mate. I just wish more traditional labour voters would look at leaving the EU from this perspective, rather than reticence around voting out because of Farage's abrasive public persona etc.

This vote is much, much bigger than party politics and left/right binaries.

Everyone has heard of the 'Brexit' film, but I don't think many have heard of the 'Lexit' film, and I think it represents essential viewing: