EU referendum

[PrestwichPeteMcfc]

Interesting read this. Some very good points being put across from both sides. Occasionally I think I'm reading Nigel Farage's auto cue rather than a poster's thoughts.

 

[CityStu]

My view has always been whether total Europe or total UK or total Wales it is all just arbitraty. I disagree with all the nonsense about it being fascism if a law comes from Europe and democracy if from London. I think that there is a trade off every time you reduce the size of a body between the efficiency and bargaining power you have and the democratic deficit you gain. I don't think the UK is run in the interest of all of the UK anymore than I think the EU is run in the interests of all of the EU, in both cases they are run in the interests of a wealthy few who control the message. Look at the debate one wealthy Eton educated Oxford educated moderately able white middle aged man arguing against another.

I get that. I don't have any particular problem with laws coming from the EU; my concern is that if they bring in a law that isn't in the UK's best interest then there is no accountability. I wouldn't have a clue who I should protest to! Obviously we have MEPs in the European Parliament but most of the legislature seems to come from the European Council and European Commission. The UK has one seat on each of those, often seems to be in the minority and that one seat is being ever diluted with the addition of more member states. The UK parliament, whilst I get your point about a north/south divide, seems much simpler.

In many ways I think it's irellevant and Cleary it's not effecting me directly either way. But what I want to see is an actual long term plan and vision, with great honesty on what Britains future is. What is the economic plan, how will health care and an ageing population be paid for, what are people prepared to give up to secure that. What is the ideal level for where power sits, what is the relationship in Euprpe, what is Britains role in the world etc. All far bigger and more important issues than the EU.

It's difficult with Cameron being on the In side. I'm sure Boris has plans for how to make an independent UK work, Labour would be daft to not have that contingency and UKIP produced an independently verified costed manifesto in the last general election (although admittedly there has to be some estimation involved). I'm very happy with the UK's current position within NATO and the UN. I don't agree with a block on immigration but I'm completely against uncontrolled immigration. All in all, I don't really care about how people around the world see us - I just think we're getting taken for a ride by the EU at the moment.

All I see is Britain talking itself into a crisis, undermining its future and an argument created to avoid dealing with the real issues. What's more both sides don't seem to have any vision of where to go and how and a single positive argument between them. Behind that a deeply ignorant electorate (on the real facts of this situation - not calling the British thick) vote based on what a few politicians and very very wealthy people tell them.

As I said above, I think there will be plans but it isn't general election time and a lot can change before the next general election. I'd love to hear Boris' plans for an independent UK but I'm not sure it is right for him to air them whilst he is not the incumbent PM.

It is genuinely a fuck up and a failure of leadership in the UK and its causing damage in itself regardless of what the vote does.

On this, I agree. I wish Cameron had held back from campaigning at all really. Let Osbourne campaign for In and Boris for Out and give them both all of the resources they need and the public all of the information they request. I think he'd have come out of it for the better as well - he's stepping down so this isn't his fight.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I think you completely missed the point of the question either that or you don't have an answer. I suspect that you don't even recognise the problem.

I understand the point of the question it was an attempt to pretend the uk is an amazing democracy where I can easily help influence law change and Europe is a dictatorship with no democratic ability to effect change. It was an attempt to simplify a very complex situation to make a political point

 

[johntech61]

Being part of the biggest trading bloc attracting investment, Global company's are based here because we're apart of it.

Being part of the EU means we have say in EU laws mainly for business, leaving would mean we have no say. -
More than 50% of our exports go to EU countries, and our membership allows us to have a say over how trading rules are drawn up.

It has been estimated that UK trade with some countries in Europe could have increased by as much as 50% as a result of EU membership

Freedom to work In other EU member states

The European Arrest Warrant cuts out the need for long and complicated extradition procedures and allows criminals to be brought to justice across the EU

The EU is the world's biggest market and plays a big role in world trade, climate change issues, development projects and more.

It has the clout to take on multinationals such as Google and Microsoft. At the moment Britain plays a key role in the EU, and leaving would see us forgo that.

Stripped of influence in Brussels, Berlin and Paris, Britain would find itself increasingly ignored by Washington and sidelined on big transnational issues such as the environment, security and trade.

America and other allies want Britain to remain in the EU. The UK risks becoming a maverick, isolated state if it leaves.


British families enjoy lower mobile phone roaming charges, lower credit card fees, cheaper flights and proper compensation when flights are delayed or cancelled. These sorts of benefits could not be achieved by Britain alone.


The EU has helped secure peace among previously warring western European nations. It helped to consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet bloc countries and helped preserve peace in the Balkans since the end of the Balkans War. With the UN it now plays a leading role in conflict prevention, peacekeeping and democracy building.

Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries.

The UK is the second largest beneficiary of EU research funds, and the British Government expects future EU research funding to constitute a vital source of income for our world-leading universities and companies.

 

[johntech61]

really? Were it to go tits up we would be a different proposition - why would they want us back if we were no longer the 5th biggest economy? Would they want the say 25th? If Romania and Turkey are such basket cases then why would the EU burden themselves with another crap economy if it went tits up for us - if we haven't voted in a generation then believe me its a generation at least before the EU would want us back in.
If we vote to leave it will stir nationalist parties up in other EU countries - they won't forgive us quickly for upsetting the delicate balance they have all striven to establish. We leave and the ticket is one way.

In or out are both a leap into a cesspit. The only difference is that we know what kind of cesspit an IN vote will bring.

Belive me that that cesspit will get deeper,and when the shit goes above your head you won't be able to cry for help.

 

[johntech61]

Just seen rag cafe's referendum poll on this and its almost a mirror opposite of ours - 68% to remain 32% to leave - can any political scientists on here interpret what this means in terms of the respective demographics of both sets of supporters ;-)

Shows there all thick as fu*K.

 

[johntech61]

EU myth busting, I've not fact checked it but it seems like a decent article.

http://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/mythbusters/

Reads like BS to me

 

[PrestwichPeteMcfc]

Shows there all thick as fu*K.

If it says anything (which it probably doesn't) it's that they're younger and more well educated.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Reads like BS to me

It is bullshit. He claims there is a myth that the EU accounts have never been signed off. The real claim which is true is that the last accounts to get a clean bill of health were 2012.

Here is what the audit for 2014 says:

Summary of the 2014 Statement of Assurance

The European Court of Auditors gives a clean opinion on the reliability of the 2014 accounts of the European Union.

Revenue for 2014, taken as a whole, is legal and regular.
Payments for 2014 are materially affected by error. We therefore give an adverse opinion on their legality and regularity.

For the full text of our statement of assurance, please refer to Chapter 1 of the 2014 annual report.

http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/auditinbrief-2014/auditinbrief-2014-EN.pdf

The estimated level of error, which measures the level of irregularity, for 2014 payments is 4.4 %, close to that of 2013 (4.5 %) and persistently above the materiality threshold of 2 %.

correction:
2012 was materially affected by error too!

EU accounts = 4-5% fraud in payments consistently.

 

[johntech61]

Christ. Have only just read about it

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

It's horrendous.

Vote in and this is what you get.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Vote in and this is what you get.

Vote out and you will be guaranteed a worse state of affairs.
Who in their right mind would let the current fools run amok?

 

[YPhrunts]

"Brussels wants to seize control of asylum claims in the EU, it was revealed last night.

It was accused of attempting a power grab by removing individual countries’ ability to decide who is granted refuge within their borders.

The European Commission will propose that all applications are decided centrally by the European Asylum Support Office. Refugees would then be shared out among states using quotas.

Britain will not be forced to join the system as it has an opt-out on justice and home affairs, but the Government is still likely to resist the change when the Commission presents the idea as one of two options for reform in the next fortnight.

The other proposal would be to keep the present system where people apply in the first country they enter, but with a quota system to share out refugees if a country becomes overwhelmed.

David Cameron will today attend an emergency summit in Brussels aimed at saving the EU’s passport-free travel zone, Schengen."


So it's a totalitarian vision for the future Brussels has for us all then and some people are willing to continue membership of this cabal? Why is our Prime Minister even attending this event? The demise of Schengen has nothing to do with us.

 

[SWP's back]

Vote out and you will be guaranteed a worse state of affairs.
Who in their right mind would let the current fools run amok?

Well at least you don't resort to scaremongering.....

You'd have the chance to vote them out and let them be accountable unlike the Federal European Parliament.

 

[EalingBlue2]

It is bullshit. He claims there is a myth that the EU accounts have never been signed off. The real claim which is true is that the last accounts to get a clean bill of health were 2012.

Here is what the audit for 2014 says:


http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/auditinbrief-2014/auditinbrief-2014-EN.pdf




correction:
2012 was materially affected by error too!

EU accounts = 4-5% fraud in payments consistently.

Yes and that fraud is virtually entirely an issue of member countries not the EU establishment ie when a farmer in Wales or Scotland or Greece claims more than entitled or a government (which could include our own) does something incorrect with a payment. So whilst there is a gap on expense it isn't money disappearing into the EU commissioners pockets it is nearly all issues in the soverign governments on the countries and their people ie us and our government.

Not too different in me having to pay more insurance because other people think it's ok to make up or exaggerate claims, pretend cars are parked in suburbs they aren't, have different usage or share points or accidents out amongst the family etc etc

 

[EalingBlue2]

Well at least you don't resort to scaremongering.....

You'd have the chance to vote them out and let them be accountable unlike the Federal European Parliament.

Not if the majority of the country don't agree which is the same problem with the European Parliament

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Shows there all thick as fu*K.

It shows that most of their support is foreign. Those on the continent cannot believe we want to leave!

 

[EalingBlue2]

"Brussels wants to seize control of asylum claims in the EU, it was revealed last night.

It was accused of attempting a power grab by removing individual countries’ ability to decide who is granted refuge within their borders.

The European Commission will propose that all applications are decided centrally by the European Asylum Support Office. Refugees would then be shared out among states using quotas.

Britain will not be forced to join the system as it has an opt-out on justice and home affairs, but the Government is still likely to resist the change when the Commission presents the idea as one of two options for reform in the next fortnight.

The other proposal would be to keep the present system where people apply in the first country they enter, but with a quota system to share out refugees if a country becomes overwhelmed.

David Cameron will today attend an emergency summit in Brussels aimed at saving the EU’s passport-free travel zone, Schengen."


So it's a totalitarian vision for the future Brussels has for us all then and some people are willing to continue membership of this cabal? Why is our Prime Minister even attending this event? The demise of Schengen has nothing to do with us.

As a matter of interest why is Europe deciding on this for Britain totalitarian but Britain deciding it for the north west democracy. Both is a arbitraty large area making a decision for a smaller area.

The EU setting policy for the UK is ultimately no different to the UK setting policy for Wales or Wales setting policy for Gwynedd.

the EU is not totalitarian anymore than the UK is, it has flaws as does the British government, it has strengths as does the British government.

Trying to paint it as totalitarian or like last night (I know not you) as akin to naziism doesn't show any confidence in the argument or strategy behind the out canpaign.

 

[EalingBlue2]

It shows that most of their support is foreign. Those on the continent cannot believe we want to leave!

It probably shows a hundred things all hidden by a small biased sample

 

[Ancient Citizen]

The head of the British Chambers of Commerce, John Longworth has resigned, days after announcing he supports Brexit.
Seems like Dave has put pressure on, which is scandalous, if true.
It is telling that the the head of this organisation supports an out vote, it kind of rubbishes a fair bit of scaremongering.

 

[EalingBlue2]

The head of the British Chambers of Commerce, John Longworth has resigned, days after announcing he supports Brexit.
Seems like Dave has put pressure on, which is scandalous, if true.
It is telling that the the head of this organisation supports an out vote, it kind of rubbishes a fair bit of scaremongering.

When a leader like that resigns it is most likely to show they are out of step with their membership and realise it or they want to do something incompatible with leading such an organisation. Any other element is possible too but that's the most likely

It rubbishes scaremongering in the same way the prime minister supporting in rubbises out scaremongering