EU referendum

[The perfect fumble]

The best solutions are often so simple. Amazing nobody thought of this before.

Oh George has thought of it, but that is not his main objective, nor is deficit reduction come to think of it, that's just a means to an end. The end being the permanent reduction of the State.

A chancellor who shrinks the state will end up shrinking his popularity...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...lor-shrinks-state-end-up-shrinking-popularity

"Let’s face it. All this stuff about “one nation” and “compassionate Conservatism” is so much guff. When people say how pragmatic and centrist this chancellor really is, I, for one, start counting the spoons. As Tony Travers, professor in the British government department at the London School of Economics, writes in the coming August issue of the National Institute Economic Review, Osborne’s desire for “a 36% state” (as a proportion of GDP) “is well below the longer-term average for UK state spending, and will require very large further cuts to ‘unprotected’ services such as local government, the police, fire, transport and housing.”

This is his agenda, he makes no secret of the fact.

 

[sir baconface]

Oh George has thought of it, but that is not his main objective, nor is deficit reduction come to think of it, that's just a means to an end. The end being the permanent reduction of the State.

A chancellor who shrinks the state will end up shrinking his popularity...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...lor-shrinks-state-end-up-shrinking-popularity

"Let’s face it. All this stuff about “one nation” and “compassionate Conservatism” is so much guff. When people say how pragmatic and centrist this chancellor really is, I, for one, start counting the spoons. As Tony Travers, professor in the British government department at the London School of Economics, writes in the coming August issue of the National Institute Economic Review, Osborne’s desire for “a 36% state” (as a proportion of GDP) “is well below the longer-term average for UK state spending, and will require very large further cuts to ‘unprotected’ services such as local government, the police, fire, transport and housing.”

This is his agenda, he makes no secret of the fact.

Wasn't this the platform he was elected on? Within reason (i.e not indiscriminate), shrinking the state is an acceptable policy to a large proportion of voters.

 

[hgblue]

Ok, so that's 2 out of 27. The other 25 might have a say, just possibly.

And is it you that keeps saying "trade war"?

Trying replacing those words with "struggling to reach agreement". Fuck me we struggle to reach agreement on cabbage quotas, and yet for some insane reason some people seem to think an end-to-end EU-wide goods *and services* agreement will be like falling off a log. Will it fuck. It will take YEARS.

It's inconceivable that the other 25 would block a trade deal that had been agreed between the UK and the two main powers in the EU. What possible motivation would they have for doing so?

So not a trade war? Tariffs on British goods and services? So tariffs on German cars and French wine etc? Not a war, but a mutually damaging course of action that leads to economic difficulties across the continent? What would you call it then?

Once the referendum is over and if Leave wins, the posturing stops and pragmatism kicks in.

 

[Chippy_boy]

It's inconceivable that the other 25 would block a trade deal that had been agreed between the UK and the two main powers in the EU. What possible motivation would they have for doing so?

So not a trade war? Tariffs on British goods and services? So tariffs on German cars and French wine etc? Not a war, but a mutually damaging course of action that leads to economic difficulties across the continent? What would you call it then?

Once the referendum is over and if Leave wins, the posturing stops and pragmatism kicks in.

I'd call it, "not being able to reach an agreement".

I've explained until I am blue in the face why other nations (and indeed France) will not want the UK to have a favourable trade deal. It's very logical and understandable. Have a read of my posts, I can't post it all yet again, from an iPad.

 

[hgblue]

I'd call it, "not being able to reach an agreement".

I've explained until I am blue in the face why other nations (and indeed France) will not want the UK to have a favourable trade deal. It's very logical and understandable. Have a read of my posts, I can't post it all yet again, from an iPad.

I've read what you've posted, I just disagree with it. The day after we exit the EU we become their most important export market. If they want to continue to sell us their cars and wine then they need to agree a mutually beneficial trading arrangement. Failure to do so will plunge the Eurozone into a even bigger crisis, cost jobs, and upset important vested interests. So will the need to 'teach the Brits a lesson' outweigh the economic damage that would be sustained? No chance.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Wasn't this the platform he was elected on? Within reason (i.e not indiscriminate), shrinking the state is an acceptable policy to a large proportion of voters.

Your evidence being? Is it tucked away somewhere in the manifesto?

You believe there is a consensus on this? No one seems to have told Cameron's mother.

He doesn't even have a consensus within his own party never mind the country, look at Osborne's backtracking budget and his subsequent humiliations, look at Duncan Smith “it looks like we see benefits as a pot of money to cut because they don't vote for us”. Which of course cut to the bone of this government because it's true.

Tories can fool themselves they have the nation on side and point to the fact they won the election, but if they think that gives them the political capital to engage in some neo liberal experiment they are finding out on a daily basis it isn't true, even their Shire Counties were in revolt until they raided the cookie jar and gave them an extra £350 million.

In government but not in power, more and more like the Major years with each passing week. Cameron's approval rating has now dropped below Corbyn’s! You think this government has the political muscle to slash the State? You're kidding yourself.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I've read what you've posted, I just disagree with it. The day after we exit the EU we become their most important export market. If they want to continue to sell us their cars and wine then they need to agree a mutually beneficial trading arrangement. Failure to do so will plunge the Eurozone into a even bigger crisis, cost jobs, and upset important vested interests. So will the need to 'teach the Brits a lesson' outweigh the economic damage that would be sustained? No chance.

For gods sake how many bleeding times. We are 7% of the EU's exports and 20+ countries hardly export anything to us at all. You're simply in denial because it's not what you want to hear. All the trading agreements other countries have struck with the EU have taken years and no-one has managed to come to an agreement that includes services, which is vital for us and our services based economy. And then you've got the consideration that (a) a trade agreement that gives our businesses access to the EU without complying with EU regulations, is an unfair playing field that no country will want to agree to, and (b) they also won't want to agree because doing so gives the green light to anyone else who wants to leave.

There is absolutely no basis on which to be confident that a favourable agreement could be reached in less than many years, perhaps a decade or more. It needs 20 countries to agree it, not two.

If you don't want to accept this then fine. Stick your head in the sand all you like.

 

[CityStu]

But immigration is controlled, or are you talking about European migration? I don't think anyone is suggesting we just open our borders and let everyone in. I mean to counter argue your point there's close to 2 million Brits now living in Spain. Now I don't have the figures but I bet the majority of those are retired and more a drain on their economy than the younger Spanish working here!

Equally I get your point re population density but Belgium and Holland are still higher than us so it's not like we are close to doomsday.

Personally I think Europeans contribute a hell of a lot more to this country than they take out. I mean the ones I know work their arses off for little money and spend almost all their wages on extorsionate rental prices in London. This country is milking them!

EU migration is uncontrolled - if an EU national wants to come into the UK, they can. Those Brits in Spain are spending a relative fortune earned in the UK in Spain instead. They are a huge plus to their economy and they'd be welcomed back with open arms if Spain, for some reason, decided they wanted to send them back.

Holland are in a very similar position to the UK in that an In/Out EU referendum would be very interesting indeed. Belgium is HQ and would presumably get a fair few kickbacks from that.

I think some EU migrants contribute to the economy. I see no rational argument against having an immigration policy that encourages migration of any foreign nationals who can speak English and are skilled in a manner that would contribute to the UK workforce (i.e. if we have enough fisherman then we don't bring in foreign fisherman, but if we need more accountants then we encourage accountancy degrees and bring foreign accountants in on short term VISAs). I see absolutely no argument for allowing all and sundry in when we're already rammed. Have you seen any new build housing estates? You're living in your neighbours back garden.

 

[sir baconface]

Your evidence being? Is it tucked away somewhere in the manifesto?

You believe there is a consensus on this? No one seems to have told Cameron's mother.

He doesn't even have a consensus within his own party never mind the country, look at Osborne's backtracking budget and his subsequent humiliations, look at Duncan Smith “it looks like we see benefits as a pot of money to cut because they don't vote for us”. Which of course cut to the bone of this government because it's true.

Tories can fool themselves they have the nation on side and point to the fact they won the election, but if they think that gives them the political capital to engage in some neo liberal experiment they are finding out on a daily basis it isn't true, even their Shire Counties were in revolt until they raided the cookie jar and gave them an extra £350 million.

In government but not in power, more and more like the Major years with each passing week. Cameron's approval rating has now dropped below Corbyn’s! You think this government has the political muscle to slash the State? You're kidding yourself.

Not sure what you're on about. Squeezing public finances was overt Tory policy and they won the election.

 

[Helmet Cole]

For gods sake how many bleeding times. We are 7% of the EU's exports and 20+ countries hardly export anything to us at all. You're simply in denial because it's not what you want to hear. All the trading agreements other countries have struck with the EU have taken years and no-one has managed to come to an agreement that includes services, which is vital for us and our services based economy. And then you've got the consideration that (a) a trade agreement that gives our businesses access to the EU without complying with EU regulations, is an unfair playing field that no country will want to agree to, and (b) they also won't want to agree because doing so gives the green light to anyone else who wants to leave.

There is absolutely no basis on which to be confident that a favourable agreement could be reached in less than many years, perhaps a decade or more. It needs 20 countries to agree it, not two.

If you don't want to accept this then fine. Stick your head in the sand all you like.

You sound like you have the brains to see the flaws in what you are saying - or are you actually just clinging to a scare story? 7% (the thick end of10%) of the EU export market is not a small figure in the world of commerce as you seem to imply. Also our 'service industry' by which I assume you mean financial is slightly more outward looking than you seem to realise. The EU is a part of this for sure, but it is a global picture in reality. I'd be interested to hear your doom and gloom take on how bae and airbus will go there separate ways once we are not allowed to trade with the EU - please enlighten me. Have a look at how the defense industry and NATO works and I think you may find hope for a post brexit deal which may calm your dripping fanny down a bit ;-)

 

[bugsyblue]

EU migration is uncontrolled - if an EU national wants to come into the UK, they can. Those Brits in Spain are spending a relative fortune earned in the UK in Spain instead. They are a huge plus to their economy and they'd be welcomed back with open arms if Spain, for some reason, decided they wanted to send them back.

Holland are in a very similar position to the UK in that an In/Out EU referendum would be very interesting indeed. Belgium is HQ and would presumably get a fair few kickbacks from that.

I think some EU migrants contribute to the economy. I see no rational argument against having an immigration policy that encourages migration of any foreign nationals who can speak English and are skilled in a manner that would contribute to the UK workforce (i.e. if we have enough fisherman then we don't bring in foreign fisherman, but if we need more accountants then we encourage accountancy degrees and bring foreign accountants in on short term VISAs). I see absolutely no argument for allowing all and sundry in when we're already rammed. Have you seen any new build housing estates? You're living in your neighbours back garden.

I know EU migration is uncontrolled, hence why I was clarifying what you were discussing. In terms of the Spain argument are you saying then the Spanish workers, living and working here, aren't contributing to our economy? And I'm sorry but I find it hypocritical some of your views. I mean mate have you ever been to Benidorm or somewhere like that? Trust me very few Brits living there speak English never mind Spanish! Meanwhile im pretty sure all the Spanish that work here speak the language!

I agree there should be some control of EU immigration, that's one con but still the pros far out way the negatives for me. I mean the majority, vast majority, who leave their friends, family, loved ones behind in their home country come here to work out of necessity and it's situation that vastly benefits our country. They come here because there's jobs! The people who make your coffee in the morning, the guys who serve your lunch and clean your house, they don't come here to sit on their arse. I just think immigrants get such a bad rap in the press it's disgusting. If there was large unemployment with British born people missing out on jobs due to EU migrants then I could understand it, but let's be honest it isn't! I accept your argument it's much more harder to plan public spending but if you think this government is going to grown public spending in-line with natural British population growth then you're kidding yourself - the NHS won't suddenly be saved because of EU immigration control!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Is that you Gordon?

Your party tried that 20 times over the last 100 years and it never worked. Still, you can't knock a tryer can you.

In which case you have to say many Tory economics failed as on many economic indicators such as unemployment they have been less successful than labour. I would love to know which countries show economic success with declining ageing populations and no immigration?

Also look around the world at shining economic success stories and with the exceptions of two monoliths in China and India with humongous natural population growth you'll find immigration is behind most of them.

 

[Chippy_boy]

In which case you have to say many Tory economics failed as on many economic indicators such as unemployment they have been less successful than labour. I would love to know which countries show economic success with declining ageing populations and no immigration?

Also look around the world at shining economic success stories and with the exceptions of two monoliths in China and India with humongous natural population growth you'll find immigration is behind most of them.

What's immigration got to do with the price of bread? I haven't even mentioned it.

And to the last poster whoever you are - I can't be arsed looking it up - fuck off with your dry your fanny and other such shite. Am I am not even sure which way I am voting yet, but at least if I do vote leave, I will do so with my eyes open, fully cognisant of the challenges that lie ahead. Unlike the happy clappers on here who think we'll have a lovely trade agreement signed and sealed by tea-time with some nice biscuits and everyone living happily ever after. Frankly I think anyone who thinks it will be plain sailing is an idiot.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Fanny wipes required by the looks of it! Are you old enough to vote?

 

[EalingBlue2]

What's immigration got to do with the price of bread? I haven't even mentioned it.

And to the last poster whoever you are - I can't be arsed looking it up - fuck off with your dry your fanny and other such shite. Am I am not even sure which way I am voting yet, but at least if I do vote leave, I will do so with my eyes open, fully cognisant of the challenges that lie ahead. Unlike the happy clappers on here who think we'll have a lovely trade agreement signed and sealed by tea-time with some nice biscuits and everyone living happily ever after. Frankly I think anyone who thinks it will be plain sailing is an idiot.

Wasn't meant to be a quote from you wasn't addressing an immigration point from you not have I seen one - apologies .

A lot of people think it's the problem behind everything but won't even discuss structural deficits, what is actually damaging the health service etc as they can't discuss true post situation as they are living in cloud cuckoo land, I can see in their fantasy world myself what I must have been like when I thought Pearce would turn it round

 

[Chippy_boy]

Fanny wipes required by the looks of it! Are you old enough to vote?

Wanker

 

[Helmet Cole]

Wanker

Yes?

 

[Balti]

Obama to the rescue lol

Nosey yank twat

 

[The perfect fumble]

Not sure what you're on about. Squeezing public finances was overt Tory policy and they won the election.

You're right, you don't know what I'm on about.

 

[Moriati]

'There is absolutely no basis on which to be confident that a favourable agreement could be reached in less than many years, perhaps a decade or more. It needs 20 countries to agree it, not two'.

A view from Norway:


http://www.betteroffout.net/wp-cont...ment-from-the-Board-of-No-to-EU-in-Norway.pdf