EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

So apart from the Hitler bit you'd be happy?

I reckon before I die we will be on a single global digital currency and it seems increasingly even in China that more and more people speak English so I think a lot of it will happen whether I like it or not. As to whether I'd be happy or it would work there are a million other factors

 

[Chippy_boy]

Over 90% of the UK's economy is not involved with the EU, since the vast majority doesn't involve importing or exporting. Also, you need to look at the trend of EU/RoW exports (graph below); that 44% is ever decreasing as we trade more and more with non-EU countries. You also assume that leaving the EU will reduce EU trade to zero, which won't be the case. Once exit agreements are triggered (which need not be immediately after the referendum) there is a 2 year grace period where trade would carry on as before to acclimatise to the exit and agree new trade deals. It's in both party's interests to get that sorted.

Everything above, all of it, is irrelevant. (not that "only" 40% by 2019 means "that's ok then")

You CANNOT put 44% of a country's exports at risk without wrecking its economy. When an economy is teetering on the point of recession, any damage to it's exports and confidence is going to push it back into recession.

As to "both party's interests to get it sorted", for the 900th time, the EU is not "the other party". There are 27 other member states that have to agree and some of them flatly will not want to. Even Germany, who are likely to be the easiest to negotiate with, are likely to want to take the opportunity to improve their chances of establishing Frankfurt as the economic hub of Europe, rather than London and will doubtless have all sorts of shit they'll want in there with regards to the financial services industry. France will probably just say "non" to everything because they hate us and would cut off their noses to spite their camembert sales. And 25 other countries won't want us selling our goods into their market willy nilly when UK businesses don't have the same restrictions on working hours and everything else.

Can you REALLY not see that your suggesting that these will be quick negotiations is pure fantasy? Really, can you not see that?

Now if you actually think "yes, it's going mean real pain and yes, we'll probably go into recession and lose jobs and the rest, but I want to do it anyway", then I get that. Fine. But honestly you cannot in all seriousness think these negotiations are going to be quick and straightforward? You'd have to be on drugs to think that.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I'll cede my claim to humour as you've ceded yours to rational argument.

How so? Give me a quote.

 

[steviemc]

How can anyone make a call on whether losing £61m a week is a good or bad thing when we don't actually know what the financial benefits are of the EU trade agreements. It's very feasible that we leave the EU, thus save £61m a week but actually lose £100m of trade and business contracts per week as a consequence. Equally if we still want to trade with our European partners then the EU will insist we have to abide by certain laws anyway, laws we no longer will get a say on because we aren't a party member, look at Norway and Switzerland!

...but we've really only had a say in laws that suited our purpose anyway. We've voted 'against' in the EU council of laws 72 times since the inception of the EU. How many times would you guess we've been outvoted? I'll give you the answer... 72!

So much for us 'getting a say' in Europe eh ;-)

 

[Kazzydeyna]

The problem with the remain voters thinking it will be difficult to negotiate a trade deal post brexit is that they are projecting their own sense of weakness onto the negotiating team.

This nation, for all her faults and disgusting history, survived perfectly well from the middle ages until the 1970's without needing Luxembourg's permission to fish her waters, and trade with whomever she chose to, in which ever manner suited both parties.

The post brexit team will simply say, to Germany, you want to sell your cars and your engineering to the UK? No problem, speak to your partners about this trade deal, drop the tariffs and we'll do the same. It'll be just like before only this time we ain't starving our public services of cash to pay for the privilege of buying German cars or French wine.

There is no confidence in our nation on the remain side. We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, maybe the 4th shortly, don't tell me we couldn't survive. And thrive.

 

[bugsyblue]

...but we've really only had a say in laws that suited our purpose anyway. We've voted 'against' in the EU council of laws 72 times since the inception of the EU. How many times would you guess we've been outvoted? I'll give you the answer... 72!

So much for us 'getting a say' in Europe eh ;-)

Well we've just renegotiated certain terms that were favourable for our country so yes we do get a say as opposed to no say whatsoever being a non-union member.

 

[CityStu]

Well we've just renegotiated certain terms that were favourable for our country so yes we do get a say as opposed to no say whatsoever being a non-union member.

Haha, I bet you think that the EU can reform and pigs can fly as well. Cameron got fuck all in his negotiations and they don't even have to enforce that.

 

[bugsyblue]

The problem with the remain voters thinking it will be difficult to negotiate a trade deal post brexit is that they are projecting their own sense of weakness onto the negotiating team.

This nation, for all her faults and disgusting history, survived perfectly well from the middle ages until the 1970's without needing Luxembourg's permission to fish her waters, and trade with whomever she chose to, in which ever manner suited both parties.

The post brexit team will simply say, to Germany, you want to sell your cars and your engineering to the UK? No problem, speak to your partners about this trade deal, drop the tariffs and we'll do the same. It'll be just like before only this time we ain't starving our public services of cash to pay for the privilege of buying German cars or French wine.

There is no confidence in our nation on the remain side. We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, maybe the 4th shortly, don't tell me we couldn't survive. And thrive.

But it's not the middle ages. Nor is it 1970. It's 2016 and the modern version of the extended European Union was basically only formed in 1992 so what you're arguing is that we would have equal trading power being on our own going up against 27 member states whose combined GDP will astronomically dwarf ours, whose key members will probably be pissed off with us and still, through our 'positive' negotiating tactics be able to strike equal or more beneficial deals to the ones we have now? You genuinely believe that? You don't think there's a chance that at least in the short term it's going to be detrimental to our economy?

 

[bugsyblue]

Haha, I bet you think that the EU can reform and pigs can fly as well. Cameron got fuck all in his negotiations and they don't even have to enforce that.

Pigs, interesting analogy. Why would capitalist greedy pig-fucker Cameron want to stay in the EU then if it wasn't financially beneficial? Please tell because I'm all ears. If there's any chance the UK's economy could benefit from leaving the EU then him and his cronies would be championing it!

 

[Metal Biker]

Well we've just renegotiated certain terms that were favourable for our country so yes we do get a say as opposed to no say whatsoever being a non-union member.

Renegotiated, but not yet accepted.

 

[Malty]

Haha, I bet you think that the EU can reform and pigs can fly as well. Cameron got fuck all in his negotiations and they don't even have to enforce that.

It was hilarious to see Cameron trying to hail it as some master art of negotiating when they are all laughing at him as they played him.

 

[Metal Biker]

But it's not the middle ages. Nor is it 1970. It's 2016 and the modern version of the extended European Union was basically only formed in 1992 so what you're arguing is that we would have equal trading power being on our own going up against 27 member states whose combined GDP will astronomically dwarf ours, whose key members will probably be pissed off with us and still, through our 'positive' negotiating tactics be able to strike equal or more beneficial deals to the ones we have now? You genuinely believe that? You don't think there's a chance that at least in the short term it's going to be detrimental to our economy?

In regards to this point, I do believe we'll find things hard for the first few years but after that we'll have settled agreements with other trading blocs, including the EU, and start forging ahead as an independent nation. I feel it's a case of short term pain, long term benefits by leaving over short term benefits, long term pain by remaining.

 

[bugsyblue]

In regards to this point, I do believe we'll find things hard for the first few years but after that we'll have settled agreements with other trading blocs, including the EU, and start forging ahead as an independent nation. I feel it's a case of short term pain, long term benefits by leaving over short term benefits, long term pain by remaining.

Well that's a fair point, you're obviously recognising there will be a detrimental effect on the economy at least in the short term. It's amazing how many people don't even seem to recognise that.

 

[Metal Biker]

Well that's a fair point, you're obviously recognising there will be a detrimental effect on the economy at least in the short term. It's amazing how many people don't even seem to recognise that.

I've noticed on other media outlets it's starting to be addressed that leaving will hit our economy, at least in the first few years, and that we're not going to suddenly start raking it in, which is nice to see this point being raised. There are many financial gains to be had by continuing trading with Europe, but remaining as a member of the EU requires all member states to adopt the Euro currency by 2020 and i'd never want to see this country adopt such a flawed currency, tied in with the other failing EU member economies. I know Cameron has stated that in the reforms, Britain would never be expected or forced to join the Euro, but those reforms still have not been ratified or accepted by the EU (i think they vote on it after the referendum result) and that's what troubles me. Many of the reforms put forward I was happy (enough) with, but until they are assuredly accepted as official I cannot support the argument to remain.

 

[BlueHammer85]

We are the 5th biggest economy in the world

Despite the EU ruining our country eh ?

 

[CityStu]

Pigs, interesting analogy. Why would capitalist greedy pig-fucker Cameron want to stay in the EU then if it wasn't financially beneficial? Please tell because I'm all ears. If there's any chance the UK's economy could benefit from leaving the EU then him and his cronies would be championing it!

Because staying in the EU is very good financially for politicians. Look at Kinnock, Blair, etc. All got their noses in the trough after leaving national politics and are now absolutely raking it in with no risk of not getting re-elected. Corbyn's another great example - hugely anti-EU as a backbencher but now that he's got a bit of political weight behind him, he's all for it! I'm not gullible enough to believe he's had a change of heart, I think he's seen his opportunity to make himself a fortune.

 

[The perfect fumble]

How so? Give me a quote.

Yes the United States has it all wrong, spending more on education than anywhere else in the world and producing more top scientists from 8 out of the world's top 10 universities. What a fuck up their system is. Bring me asbestos-riddled 1960's prefabs any time.

http://www.moneycrashers.com/american-schools-failing-improve-us-education-system/

"A headline in the December 2013 issue of The Atlantic claimed that American schools compared to the rest of the world – the members of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) – were “expensive, unequal, bad at math.” Their conclusion was based upon American student performance in the Programme for International Student Assessment in 2012. Far East countries such as China, Korea, and Japan were top performers, while most European and Scandinavian countries ranked higher than the U.S. as well. Even the country’s former Cold War competitor, the Russian Federation, ranked higher than the United States in the assessment.


According to the OCED study, America spends more than any other nation for public elementary and secondary school education. United States parents also bear a greater proportion of the costs than parents in other countries. In fact, according to CBS News, the government of the average OECD nation covers more of the total educational cost of students – about 20% more – and they get better scholastic performance while having a lower per-student cost than the United States."

Do you want to know about their private healthcare system, or would that be too much?

The existence of lots of US top scientist and Ivy League universities no more justifies the efficacy of the US educational system than Oxford or Cambridge justifies "asbestos-riddled 1960's prefabs" here.

That's why I accused you of being in awe of the privileged 1%. Pointing to excellence at the top to justify a system that in many cases fails the 99%, shows either a supine deference to your betters or a complete lack of rational thought.

 

[CityStu]

Despite the EU ruining our country eh ?

The country is not the economy. Would you accept being the most prosperous nation in the world if you had to work full time until you keeled over, the country was concreted over, children were taught 50 to a class and you had to wait months for a doctors appointment?

 

[bugsyblue]

The country is not the economy. Would you accept being the most prosperous nation in the world if you had to work full time until you keeled over, the country was concreted over, children were taught 50 to a class and you had to wait months for a doctors appointment?

And you're voting to leave the EU, which protects worker's rights way more than any of our own laws. Riiiight.

 

[kas_tippler]

The sad thing is that scare stories will decide the result, not reasoned balanced debate from both sides. I except a vote for the UK to remain in the EU but the mud slinging and arguments to rumble on.