EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
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stonerblue said:
what are these 'British values' you speak of?
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I think he refers to British Values as what we like to believe British values are. Moderation , tolerance, openness, creativity, courage etc .

I think in reality they ceased to be British values a long time ago and greed, suspicion, fear, short termism, blame etc have replaced them .

I am not sure the Britain we all like to believe in ever existed, the glorious days of empire were built on slums, exploitation, slavery , child labour and power and not as the propagandists of the time painted it. Yes we came together as a nation from WW1 to the seventies more than we ever had but thatcher realised the way to win and to drive change is to divide and create enemies within and without and I think from this debate it is easy to see this trend has continued.

It is frightening to see in the press and from some comments on here almost disappointment that a hard right Austrian facist did not get into power - that is incredibly sad and is an awful reflection on societies values today. But fear always drives people to search for someone to blame as it is hard to acknowledge we are all responsible for the predicaments we are in - certainly anyone over about 25 anyway.
 
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Monkfish said:
Yeah the golden era of British imperialism, cruelly stolen from us by a little guy from Luxembourg apparently
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Those glorious days when 40 people could all live in a two bedroom house and share TB together in front of the fire, when kids were free to die in the street and where men as good as owned their women. There were no welfare slaves with Sky in those glorious days
 
Monkfish said:
Yeah if I was in charge i would, who the fuck gets to say where people can and can't go? Got no problem with fear of this opinion though, I get that its a bit radical and risky
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The EU, that you adore, gets to say where people can and can't go. The EU has arranged for people who try to enter it's borders by physically
removing them from camps within its borders to a country that is not, totally against their will. Even the EU is not as blindly naive as you when it comes to immigration.
Maybe it's because they're racist xenophobic white middle aged men.
Like Angela Merkel.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
I am not sure the Britain we all like to believe in ever existed, the glorious days of empire were built on slums, exploitation, slavery , child labour and power and not as the propagandists of the time painted it. Yes we came together as a nation from WW1 to the seventies more than we ever had but thatcher realised the way to win and to drive change is to divide and create enemies within and without and I think from this debate it is easy to see this trend has continued.
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She came to power because that cosy little picture you are trying to paint of the 70's is about as accurate as Kolarov from 40 Yards.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
Fair enough but it is very hard to read posts blaming the EU for virtually everything that is happening in the world especially when in many of the cases our sovereign British government has carried far more responsibility than the EU. There are posts in this thread blaming the EU for every wrong in the world and it is at best naive at worst dishonest.
then questions just don't get answered, I have tried to answer your questions even when about me and yet you haven't attempted to answer the questions I have asked back. So respect and discourse is to be fair a two way thing and if brexiters are going to blame the EU for Britains economic decline (that started well over 5 decades before the EU I was even an idea, or blame all the economic ills of Europe on the EU rather than the GFC and blame refugee crisis in Germany rather than those who started the wars in Iraq and Syria . Then it becomes hard to have any sort of rational discussion
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Okay, Apologies for not answering any questions I admit there was one yesterday which I will endeavour to go back and address, it was Moore an oversight due to time progressing and the thread moving.

On your other point about people blaming the EU for everything it may be true in some cases but not every cash and it is a tad naiive to group everyone under one heading. It could be argued that the inners and you in particular do not acknowledge that EU could be held accountable or responsible for anything that is wrong in Europe today, from immigration through to the economy. The arguements being put forward around immigration by the inners and again you in particular seem to go back in time way too far to make valid points. The reality is we are here today and we need to take action today. Yes by all means go back and the establish the causes but we cannot sir here naval gazing whilst there are millions, yes millions of people coming to Europe and indeed this country.

Regarding the GFC all we've had in this country for last six years, and it continues is Caeron and Osborne going on about the mess they inherited from the previous administration, whikst they my culpable in part it was the GFC and banking crisis that caused that (greedy people wanting more) that was more responsible IMO and I emphasise my opinion.

I'll remind you briefly my main points. Please are not totally blaming Europe, just my considered way of us dealing with them.

Economy. I would prefer to take the risk and enable Britain to manage its own finances by not being net contributors to the tune of £8.5bn - £10.5bn. If we did this we could invest in the Steel Works in Britain and have a minimum of £8,150m left to invest elsewhere.

Rule making and EU laws. There are too many constraints on us trading in the free world, from things like not being able to get involved with the steel works to as was discovered yesterday not being allowed to do trade deals with South American countries. Just two examples to try and give you an insight to the way I think.

Immigration. I have no objection to anyone coming to work and live in this country provided they bring a NEEDED skill and that we as a country have the right to make that choice. A bit like the Australians do - what is the problem with that, apart from the fact the EU says we can't? On this matter let's look at emigration. The majority of Brits abroad are ther with their own British money paying for their own medical insurance, arguably these people ARE contributing to the host nation. I am unaware of thousands if Brits turning up in Spain, penniless, homeless and in need of state support - perhaps you could enlighten me? I do not blame the EU fir this except, let's say Mrs Merkle hasn't really helped the situation. The moment dge said Germany w open for all the floodgates opened, even you cannot deny that. Now Germany is expecting the rest of the EU and Britain in particular to help. Sadly I agree with Cameron here and and I do not see the best way of helping as taking these people in from Europe. On in Europe, they are safe and they should either apply for asylum in the country they land or they should be deported to back from where they came. I agree we should be doing more to help them in their own countries.

Democracy and Sovreignty. Without having to quote figures, I do not like the democratic model that the EU offers. My Oisin, it ain't necessarily right and it ain't necessarily wrong but it's my opinion. Ido not like the fact the MEP s have £45k of unaccounted expenses, it is in effect a £45k tax free bonus, absolutely shocking. I do not like the fact that to achieve anything significant you need all 28 member states to be in agreement, the very notion of it tells you it slows down progress. I do not like the fact that any sip le law or rule takes years to get through due to the simple task of translation, I was able to give a personal example of this sooner when I worked on the Digital Tachograph project. I do not like that fact that appointed people direct the parliament rather thatn the parliament directs itself and decides what is in the best interests of the EU. I fully acknowledge due to the fact you have to have all 28 member states in agreement that that wouldn't work either. Even you cannot deny that the EU set up is the bureaucratic inefficient engine around. It simply cannot work.

Security. There are always threats that we won't be as secure and w e won't be part of the EU policing system, all I can say tk that is why bother? Why can't we deport people to and from Europe just as we do now? Only betray rats in Brussells I'll stop it, which in my mind tells me a lot.

I do blame Europe for the mis management of the current funds, I do blame Europe for being Beaureaucraic, I do blame Europe for having to go to Strassbourg at great cost oncea month to vote, I do blame the EU for overstepping the mark and getting involved in things that should not matter to them. Just how much do you think it costs to set up committees and hold meetings about bananas for example? It is a total waste if money and jobs for the boys.

This doesn't begin to answer al the points you make but it is a start.. hope this helps.
 
SWP's back said:
Universal suffrage
Freedom to follow your religion
Democracy
Freedom to marry whoever you want
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Those are liberal European values and let's not forget that NZ, Aus, Finland, Norway and parts of Russia all had female suffrage first. Single sex marriage was in a dozen countries some of them relatively conservative catholic ones before the UK, democracy would perhaps be claimed as a Greek value etc so yes they are British values but it's probably fairer to say they were liberal European values
 
SWP's back said:
She came to power because that cosy little picture you are trying to paint of the 70's is about as accurate as Kolarov from 40 Yards.
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I remember the seventies it wasn't meant to paint a beautiful picture, there were some hard economic times, it's just that idea of society having some unified interest seemed to die in the 70's and into the 80's
 
smudgedj said:
I´ve read your posts and still not sure (perhaps I missed the post you´re referring to)
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Basically Any international company that set up factories and HQ's in the UK that did it to trade with Europe. Which will be quite a few.

smudgedj said:
Anyway which other other European languages do you speak which will enable you to follow your dream of working in other European countries?
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Currently I dont speak any other languages very well, But I would happily learn the language of any country I moved to. Im guessing by your comment you have not traveled much in Europe as its very easy to get by without knowing the language as they all speak English as its the global business language. In many EU countries we have seen the locals even speaking English to each other as practice. In Denmark even the road signs and landmarks have English as the primary language.
 
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