EU referendum

[Chippy_boy]

My instinctive stance is to vote out so we can sort out our own problems on our own and build a strong economy again not as reliant on others (or is this wishful thinking?). The map you show there makes me edge closer to voting in because from a moral point of view, it makes more sense for everyone to support each other so that a large population (e.g. Greece) aren't left in the shit because of poor decisions of their people in power.

Obviously the EU is a power beacon to be abused, but is that not the nature of most humans who find themselves with the opportunity? What countries are run by people that truly care about the welfare of their people as much as their own? If we vote out, we reduce that power but it's a bit like leaving other populations behind in even more of a mess.

I haven't spent too long considering the points of voting in or out yet but every positive seems to be at the expense of something else.

Interesting reading that mate. I might also add that there's this unspoken assumption that us not being able to make all our own decisions is a terrible thing.

The "loony" rules coming from Europe about curvature of bananas, for example. How daft is that? Well actually, not so daft at all. The rule doesn't say we can't sell non-conforming bananas. It just specifies what Class 1 means and Class 2 etc. So that someone in Poland ordering a consignment of bananas sitting in a warehouse in France, doesn't end up saying "WTF are these you've sold me???" when the bananas arrive. Is that really so silly that we should have a Europe-wide standard so that everyone knows what they are buying? Doesn't seem so daft to me. Yet things like this are used by the Brexit campaign as "evidence" for how our lives are being ruined.

 

[BigJoe#1]

I gave you the exact figures, 2 weeks ago (give or take a day) 87% of bets were for leave

Today 57% of bets placed are for remain

No opinion, just facts.

Oddschecker showing 88.3% of "bets" are for leave, 11.7% for remain.

There must be huge sums being lumped on the 11.7% of bets for remain. The odds are Remain 1/3 Leave 5/2!

 

[Chippy_boy]

No if you ask me to vote on a referendum which I am doing then for the reasons I have stated which are mainly about democracy and sovereignty I would vote out, however I think the undecideds will vote in as tend to want the status quo so in will win but it will be close

However I think the scaremongering on both sides is utter shite and whether we are in or out the country will continue to prosper. The rubbish on the economy on both sides is nonsense frankly. In or out we will be fine.

What does concern me is that it has highlighted a split in the country and in the government and that is going to have an impact. I also think people have underestimated the economic instability of the eu.

How Cameron, gove borris and the government get back from this I do not know that's what has been a disappointment and will continue for a few years.

As the divide is so big it will rumble on whatever the result . Our relationship with the eu is now damaged because of the referendum and even if in win they know a lot of people don't want them. Thankfully it's not all been about immigration on here but again the global migration issue from poor countries to wealthy ones will go on ( and I don't have an answer).

So I think a referendum on this has been damaging to the country the government, the economy and our relationship with the eu, whatever the outcome.

I agree that it's been damaging. I don't agree that either way, we'll be "fine" though. At a macro-economic level, we probably won't go the way of Greece under either scenario, but that's to hugely under-represent the enomous damage that could happen to individuals and their families, to businesses, to whole communities, to regions. If Nissan decide to leave Sunderland for example, do you think the thousands of people in the North East who lost their jobs would say it was "fine"?

And no, this isn't scaremongering and I don't think it's a reasonable counter-argument to simply rubbish suggestions as being "scaremongering". Businesses like Nissan decamping from the UK is a very really possibility, perhaps even a probability.

 

[blueonblue]

Here is me outlining the lies Call me dave has told.

Everything that has come out of his mouth.

 

[yep]

Cameron has made a speech today outlining 6 common lies of the Brexit campaign – all are commonly quoted as fact on here:

That the UK is liable for future eurozone bailouts. Cameron says his EU renegotiation means Britain is categorically not liable.
That Britain’s EU rebate is at risk. Cameron says the British prime minister has a veto on changes to the rebate.
That Britain has given up its ability to veto EU treaties. The prime minister says there is nothing in the EU renegotiation that relinquishes the UK’s veto.
That Britain cannot stop overall EU spending from going up. Cameron says the EU budget is set in stone until 2020 and can only be changed with the consent of all countries.
That the UK is powerless to stop itself becoming part of an EU army. He says Britain has a “rock solid veto” on EU foreign and defence policy.
That leaving the EU would save Britain £8bn. He says this claim was debunked on Monday by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which said a Brexit would mean spending less on pubic services, or taxing more, or borrowing more.

What the ‘experts’ say on David Cameron’s claims this morning: More at http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/cameron_panics_over_flagging_in_campaign

• On promises of opt outs from Eurozone bailouts.George Osborne has said, when it comes to the EU forcing the UK to bailout Eurozone countries, the Commission has acted ‘in flagrant breach of the agreement we’d all signed up to’ in 2011.
• On the rebate. George Osborne has said: ‘It is not a unilateral decision of the British Treasury or the British Government to just say, “This is our rebate. We are entitled to it. Pay up”. The way this works and has always worked is there is a negotiation with the European Commission’.
• On the ability to veto future EU Treaties. George Osborne has said: ‘Rather than stand in your way, or veto the Treaty amendments required, we, in Britain, can support you in the Eurozone make the lasting changes that you need to see strengthen the euro. In return, you can help us make the changes we need to safeguard the interests of those economies who are not in the Eurozone’. David Cameron says: ‘we will not stand in the way of those developments’. His renegotiation (which he claims is ‘legally-binding and irreversible’) requires the UK to ‘facilitate’ Eurozone integration.
• On an economic shock hitting the public finances. David Cameron has said that trade will continue after we Vote Leave and we should not believe scaremongering: 'If we were outside the EU altogether, we’d still be trading with all these European countries, of course we would ... Of course the trading would go on … There’s a lot of scaremongering on all sides of this debate. Of course the trading would go on'.

 

[Zuriblue]

Interesting reading that mate. I might also add that there's this unspoken assumption that us not being able to make all our own decisions is a terrible thing.

The "loony" rules coming from Europe about curvature of bananas, for example. How daft is that? Well actually, not so daft at all. The rule doesn't say we can't sell non-conforming bananas. It just specifies what Class 1 means and Class 2 etc. So that someone in Poland ordering a consignment of bananas sitting in a warehouse in France, doesn't end up saying "WTF are these you've sold me???" when the bananas arrive. Is that really so silly that we should have a Europe-wide standard so that everyone knows what they are buying? Doesn't seem so daft to me. Yet things like this are used by the Brexit campaign as "evidence" for how our lives are being ruined.

Exactly. it's to do with trade. If you have a box of bananas, or cucumbers, you want to know how many are in the box and they pack better if they're reasonably straight. It's so you know what you're getting.

This is just a spec for Class I bananas/cucumbers etc. Nobody is stopping you from selling Class II which can be curvier but it means you've got less idea of what you're getting in the box - and the price will reflect that.

 

[Chippy_boy]

What the ‘experts’ say on David Cameron’s claims this morning: More at http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/cameron_panics_over_flagging_in_campaign

• On promises of opt outs from Eurozone bailouts.George Osborne has said, when it comes to the EU forcing the UK to bailout Eurozone countries, the Commission has acted ‘in flagrant breach of the agreement we’d all signed up to’ in 2011.
• On the rebate. George Osborne has said: ‘It is not a unilateral decision of the British Treasury or the British Government to just say, “This is our rebate. We are entitled to it. Pay up”. The way this works and has always worked is there is a negotiation with the European Commission’.
• On the ability to veto future EU Treaties. George Osborne has said: ‘Rather than stand in your way, or veto the Treaty amendments required, we, in Britain, can support you in the Eurozone make the lasting changes that you need to see strengthen the euro. In return, you can help us make the changes we need to safeguard the interests of those economies who are not in the Eurozone’. David Cameron says: ‘we will not stand in the way of those developments’. His renegotiation (which he claims is ‘legally-binding and irreversible’) requires the UK to ‘facilitate’ Eurozone integration.
• On an economic shock hitting the public finances. David Cameron has said that trade will continue after we Vote Leave and we should not believe scaremongering: 'If we were outside the EU altogether, we’d still be trading with all these European countries, of course we would ... Of course the trading would go on … There’s a lot of scaremongering on all sides of this debate. Of course the trading would go on'.

What's your point?

 

[blueinsa]

Its hilarious reading and listening to the in campaign claim the out are producing pie in the sky numbers when every single bit of their own propaganda contains the word "could" rather than "would".

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I agree that it's been damaging. I don't agree that either way, we'll be "fine" though. At a macro-economic level, we probably won't go the way of Greece under either scenario, but that's to hugely under-represent the enomous damage that could happen to individuals and their families, to businesses, to whole communities, to regions. If Nissan decide to leave Sunderland for example, do you think the thousands of people in the North East who lost their jobs would say it was "fine"?

And no, this isn't scaremongering and I don't think it's a reasonable counter-argument to simply rubbish suggestions as being "scaremongering". Businesses like Nissan decamping from the UK is a very really possibility, perhaps even a probability.

Nissan is Japanese (none eu) and has a base in the uk (within the eu)

Can you tell me how a none eu country can trade with an eu country? What are the tariffs etc on that. I thought it was a trading block within the European Union where we could trade goods etc within purely eurozone states? If you were making a point about bmw then , well , I don't think that would be right either but it would have more merit as that would be an example of two countries in the eu trading.

Oh that's right there are millions of trades done every single day from countries outside the European Union with countries in the eu,

I asked monkfish before to explain how McDonald's sells its burgers in the uk. McDonald's being American owned and none eu and we being in the eu. Shouldn't there be a tariff or block on that sort of thing? Surely e burgers should be cheaper and more accessible?

 

[yep]

What's your point?

can I see yours?

 

[2sheikhs]

Any company or country that makes those threats should have their bluff called. If I was in the brexit camp, I'd tell Nissan in no uncertain terms that if they were to relocate, I'd encourage a complete boycott of sales of their vehicles in this country.
This country is a huge market place for consumer goods and cars in particular.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I think to call Parliaments consideration about locking an exit a rumour is a bit far fetched.

Unfortunately, it is my local MP Stephen Kinnock who is behind this I'm ashamed to say. It isn't a rumour it's a bit stronger than that, it is a fact that this is being considered. I agree it adds oxygen to the debate and it would be far better if these things weren't floated until after the result is known!

Well done on your scoop BigJoe!

I've never like the Kinnocks although the old man's heart was in the right place. The reason I used the word "rumour" is becaused Stephen Kinnock was the only named politician and I get the feeling he's a bit of a bullshitter!

So you live in Aberavon (or there abouts). Got a few Blues in our Supporters Club your area and Swansea!

 

[west didsblue]

Oddschecker showing 88.3% of "bets" are for leave, 11.7% for remain.

There must be huge sums being lumped on the 11.7% of bets for remain. The odds are Remain 1/3 Leave 5/2!

I wonder how many people are going to vote leave because they've got a few quid on at 6/1, but would have voted remain otherwise.

 

[yep]

The trouble with the UK in the EU is we provide a lot towards the maintenanceof the tree it but we cannot get as far up it as other m

 

[FanchesterCity]

My decision is influence by a view of what would I vote if we were not currently in the EU and this referendum was voting to join or stay out.
I'd be more likely to vote stay out knowing what we were OK at that point and seeing no gain in joining. Its only the uncertainty of leaving that's making people vote Remain.

I can see where you're coming from, but the process of change itself is costly. Many businesses are operating a supply chain across Europe based on us being 'in'. Leaving the EU causes upheaval for those businesses - and upheaval = money / jobs.

- People can definitely say we shouldn't have joined - that's another debate.
- Also, the cost of pulling out shouldn't necessarily be a reason not to do it. However, we must accept that there is / will be a cost and that's being glossed over.
- Then we have the speculation about wether we're better in or out for the long term, and people have divided opinions on that.

Whatever people vote - it's important to remember that second point - just pulling out comes at an initial cost.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I can see where you're coming from, but the process of change itself is costly. Many businesses are operating a supply chain across Europe based on us being 'in'. Leaving the EU causes upheaval for those businesses - and upheaval = money / jobs.

- People can definitely say we shouldn't have joined - that's another debate.
- Also, the cost of pulling out shouldn't necessarily be a reason not to do it. However, we must accept that there is / will be a cost and that's being glossed over.
- Then we have the speculation about wether we're better in or out for the long term, and people have divided opinions on that.

Whatever people vote - it's important to remember that second point - just pulling out comes at an initial cost.

Again, you talk sense sir. I am voting out but your posts are honest and refreshing.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Nissan is Japanese (none eu) and has a base in the uk (within the eu)

Can you tell me how a none eu country can trade with an eu country? What are the tariffs etc on that. I thought it was a trading block within the European Union where we could trade goods etc within purely eurozone states? If you were making a point about bmw then , well , I don't think that would be right either but it would have more merit as that would be an example of two countries in the eu trading.

Oh that's right there are millions of trades done every single day from countries outside the European Union with countries in the eu,

I asked monkfish before to explain how McDonald's sells its burgers in the uk. McDonald's being American owned and none eu and we being in the eu. Shouldn't there be a tariff or block on that sort of thing? Surely e burgers should be cheaper and more accessible?

Do you genuinely not understand, or are you simply wanting an argument? I only ask because the threat to UK jobs is so blindingly obvious that only a complete fool or a troll could ignore it and I am assuming you are neither.

But on the basis that we can have a sensible discussion, you aware that the car manufacturing business is incredibly competitive and operates on small margins at best (unless you are Porsche)? Is it not obvious to you that if a business that set up in the UK specifically with the intention of manufacturing cars for export across Europe is faced with having it's products subject to import duty, then it might decide to move production to elsewhere in the UK? Surely that is obvious.

The CEO of Nissan some years back said they would have to reconsider their strategy if the UK ever decide to leave the EU. How much more evidence do you need?

 

[FanchesterCity]

Its hilarious reading and listening to the in campaign claim the out are producing pie in the sky numbers when every single bit of their own propaganda contains the word "could" rather than "would".

But 'could' is a fairer and more accurate description than 'would'.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I asked monkfish before to explain how McDonald's sells its burgers in the uk. McDonald's being American owned and none eu and we being in the eu. Shouldn't there be a tariff or block on that sort of thing? Surely e burgers should be cheaper and more accessible?

You mean the British beef, manufactured in the UK and sold in the UK? In the British buns, manufactured in the UK and sold in the UK? That MacDonalds? If they wanted to import American beef and american buns, they'd have to pay import duty. And guess what? They choose not to for that very reason.

You have with your OWN example demonstrated the flaw in your own argument.

 

[blueinsa]

But 'could' is a fairer and more accurate description than 'would'.

Whats the difference between their could and the brexit could?