EU referendum

[Paul_Powers_Tash]

Greece, 26% unemployed, Spain 20.4% unemployed, Portugal 12.3% unemployed, Italy 11.3% unemployed, France 10.2% unemployed. The EU clearly isn't working.

 

[jimmygrimblesboots]

Greece, 26% unemployed, Spain 20.4% unemployed, Portugal 12.3% unemployed, Italy 11.3% unemployed, France 10.2% unemployed. The EU clearly isn't working.

Look on the bright side , Poland,Rumania and few other eastern european countries unemployment figures have dropped , because they have all got jobs here :)

 

[YPhrunts]

I'm saying that this thread is chock full of people only too happy to dismiss the professionals because what they are saying doesn't chime with whatever it is they believe (and whatever is the word for it, I genuinely don't know what the Brexiters believe, they simply don't have a plan post Brexit). It's the fashion it would seem, dumbing down is the new black, every opinion has equal validity, except of course it doesn't.

There is no coherent economic case for Brexit, zero, zilch, even the Brexiters have given up pretending there is, instead they play the only card they have, day in, day out, immigration.

It might be a winning hand but it doesn't win the argument.

This is not a general election and Brexit are not obliged to deliver a manifesto and spending plans for the future. That is the governments prerogative. Cameron should be telling us what he would do if we left the EU. He is being totally irresponsible in not preparing plans for a smooth withdrawal and letting us know what they might entail. All his eggs are in one basket. Don't expect Brexit to do his job for him.

 

[The perfect fumble]

But there is a coherent economic case for Brexit. Patrick Minford and his group have made it and it was highlighted earlier in the thread. It might be correct, it might not be, but it is very coherent.

One other point and it is one that I've heard Farage, Johnson, Duncan Smith all make, that somehow leaving the EU will free some form of entrepreneurial spirit which somehow our membership of the EU has blunted. This is patent nonsense, the Germans are far more successful than we are in selling outside the EU to all the emerging markets that the Brexiters babble on about. Being at the heart of Europe has not blunted German entrepreneurial spirit, you don't get much more wedded to the EU than the Germans.

Minford babbles on about how we'll be able to take on the world with all the things we're good at, fine, but the central flaw in his argument is there's nothing stopping us from doing that now.

As for Minfords' assertion....

"If we decided to leave, the UK would simply revert back to paying world prices
for exports and imports.

Prices of goods would fall by up to eight per cent.

The cost of a BMW or the price tag of an imported fridge would suddenly drop
and our resources would shift from manufacturing to services — raising
living standards for all of us."

So, everything remains the same, we get access to EU markets as before, only with no membership fee, we buy cheaper fridges because we can buy them at a lower price, we can shift even more of our economy to services (which typically have lower wages) and let our already shrunken manufacturing base wither (where wages are higher) but we'll have cheaper bananas (I suppose that's where he gets his "raising living standards" because it won't come in our pay packets) and we can munch on them during our lunch break working at Starbucks, while we watch Minford and his chums drive buy in their knocked down BMWs.

The whole world is scrambling to join trading blocks, countries are clamouring to get in to EU, even now, we on the other hand are flirting on leaving the largest trading block in the world, we'll be the first country ever to think it is a good idea.

 

[jimmygrimblesboots]

I'm saying that this thread is chock full of people only too happy to dismiss the professionals because what they are saying doesn't chime with whatever it is they believe (and whatever is the word for it, I genuinely don't know what the Brexiters believe, they simply don't have a plan post Brexit). It's the fashion it would seem, dumbing down is the new black, every opinion has equal validity, except of course it doesn't.

There is no coherent economic case for Brexit, zero, zilch, even the Brexiters have given up pretending there is, instead they play the only card they have, day in, day out, immigration.

It might be a winning hand but it doesn't win the argument.

Yes i am dismissing the financial professionals who failed to predict the bank crash from ten years ago.

 

[peter.evans]

One other point and it is one that I've heard Farage, Johnson, Duncan Smith all make, that somehow leaving the EU will free some form of entrepreneurial spirit which somehow our membership of the EU has blunted. This is patent nonsense, the Germans are far more successful than we are in selling outside the EU to all the emerging markets that the Brexiters babble on about. Being at the heart of Europe has not blunted German entrepreneurial spirit, you don't get much more wedded to the EU than the Germans.

Minford babbles on about how we'll be able to take on the world with all the things we're good at, fine, but the central flaw in his argument is there's nothing stopping us from doing that now.

Spot on ! Or as Eddie in Early Doors would say " correctimondo" ! Wouldn't it be nice to know exactly how much our lives would be even better than the lucky bastards we are now compared to millions by leaving the EU !

 

[sir baconface]

The whole world is scrambling to join trading blocks, countries are clamouring to get in to EU, even now, we on the other hand are flirting on leaving the largest trading block in the world, we'll be the first country ever to think it is a good idea.

Take a look at which countries are clamouring to get in. Macedonia, Albania, Croatia, Kosovo, Turkey, Montenegro. Will they be net contributors? How will they benefit the UK?

 

[EalingBlue2]

But there is a coherent economic case for Brexit. Patrick Minford and his group have made it and it was highlighted earlier in the thread. It might be correct, it might not be, but it is very coherent.

A deeply discredited economist whose economics and that of his 1980's neo capitalist ilk brought us out greatest global recession ever. coherent but deeply discredited

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

A deeply discredited economist whose economics and that of his 1980's neo capitalist ilk brought us out greatest global recession ever. coherent but deeply discredited

Really?

- The models he developed while at Liverpool University are now considered the standard ones among forecasters.
- He wasn't one of the 364 economists who wrote to The Times decrying Thatcher's fiscal policies. Whatever else Thatcher was responsible for, her fiscal policies, including free movement of capital and control of the money supply, were clearly for the better. So he was right on that.
- He opposed Lawson's shadowing of the Deutschmark, which he was right on.
- He opposed entry inti the EMU/Euro, which he was right on.

He is actually one of the least discredited and most far-sighted economists of the modern era.

 

[mcfc1632]

I'm no nationalist. I'm an outer because I believe the EU is a dysfunctional organisation that has gone way beyond what most people thought it would be. It's inward looking and doesn't help the countries that are part of its membership. It mainly serves the interests of the Germans and the banks, as well as the corrupt politicians and officials that run it. Cameron lacks the power or ability to reform it and, anyway, it doesn't want to be reformed.

A vote to leave will kickstart the process to return it to what it should be as we won't be the only ones doing it.

Spot on


Lets hope the momentum towards leave is sustained until 23rd

 

[Helmet Cole]

Take a look at which countries are clamouring to get in. Macedonia, Albania, Croatia, Kosovo, Turkey, Montenegro. Will they be net contributors? How will they benefit the UK?

It won't benefit the UK unless you believe in some sort of long term happy clappy vision of euro-peace. We are rich, they are poor. We will pay in more than we get out, they will get more out than they pay in. It's like going out on the piss with your mates when they are all skint and your the one with a job. Sure they are mates, but its going to cost you if you.
I actually believe this us part of a much more sinister EU expansionist policy, but I don't want to start the whole Germans taking over the continent debate again.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Take a look at which countries are clamouring to get in. Macedonia, Albania, Croatia, Kosovo, Turkey, Montenegro. Will they be net contributors? How will they benefit the UK?

The Turks are hardly clamouring to join the EU. Yes their Government would like to join but a lot of people on the street don't want to to join a club they are either unwelcome (or reluctantly) welcome in.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

It won't benefit the UK unless you believe in some sort of long term happy clappy vision of euro-peace. We are rich, they are poor. We will pay in more than we get out, they will get more out than they pay in. It's like going out on the piss with your mates when they are all skint and your the one with a job. Sure they are mates, but its going to cost you if you.
I actually believe this us part of a much more sinister EU expansionist policy, but I don't want to start the whole Germans taking over the continent debate again.

Have you ever been to Istanbul Helmut?

 

[Helmet Cole]

Have you ever been to Istanbul Helmut?

No. Try rawk.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I have a feeling that the other big countries want us to stay in because if we leave it could cause the collapse of the EU as other citizens demand their own referendums, where that would leave Greece etc is beyond me would they effectively have no debt as they pull out or would they be royally screwed because the EU is not propping them up if they left

 

[SWP's back]

I'm saying that this thread is chock full of people only too happy to dismiss the professionals because what they are saying doesn't chime with whatever it is they believe (and whatever is the word for it, I genuinely don't know what the Brexiters believe, they simply don't have a plan post Brexit). It's the fashion it would seem, dumbing down is the new black, every opinion has equal validity, except of course it doesn't.

There is no coherent economic case for Brexit, zero, zilch, even the Brexiters have given up pretending there is, instead they play the only card they have, day in, day out, immigration.

It might be a winning hand but it doesn't win the argument.

Immigration is one facet.

Sovereignty is another.

The economic argument is unknown for obvious reason.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

BT Chairman has just been on the news......They sending all 81,000 members of the company a letter telling them that "stay" is the best thing for the country and leaving puts risk to their jobs....

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I have a feeling that the other big countries want us to stay in because if we leave it could cause the collapse of the EU as other citizens demand their own referendums, where that would leave Greece etc is beyond me would they effectively have no debt as they pull out or would they be royally screwed because the EU is not propping them up if they left

If we vote out, I'm convinced the EU will rapidly unravel, the Dutch being the first to demand referenda.

 

[BigJoe#1]

BT Chairman has just been on the news......They sending all 81,000 members of the company a letter telling them that "stay" is the best thing for the country and leaving puts risk to their jobs....

Yet another scare tactic YAWNNNNNN!!!!

How will Britain leaving the EU affect jibs in BT?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Really?

- The models he developed while at Liverpool University are now considered the standard ones among forecasters.
- He wasn't one of the 364 economists who wrote to The Times decrying Thatcher's fiscal policies. Whatever else Thatcher was responsible for, her fiscal policies, including free movement of capital and control of the money supply, were clearly for the better. So he was right on that.
- He opposed Lawson's shadowing of the Deutschmark, which he was right on.
- He opposed entry inti the EMU/Euro, which he was right on.

He is actually one of the least discredited and most far-sighted economists of the modern era.

Minford got some thins right but the shadowing of the Deutchmark by Lawson gave Brown the elbow grease to keep us out of the Eurozone.

Lawson's tracking of the Deutchmark was not the error Minford makes it out to be. It was a test / research (in a relatively safe environment) and the fact it didn't benefit the UK at the time continues to help us now!