EU referendum

[Tim of the Oak]

See it means you are not a racist...............................................................


Or are you?

I fell foul of Urmston's definition of a racist earlier in the thread.

Something about Gisela Stuart being a bit confused!

 

[Matty]

Why, we will still be in 'Europe' or is the uk moving to Africa, signing players is a geographical thing not a political thing.

Not really the most important part of the In/Out debate but you're wrong.

Signing players, in some circumstances, is directly affected by politics, or more importantly labour laws.

Take Kevin De Bruyne for example, he's Belgian, Belgium are part of the EU, so when we signed him he was free to move unencumbered to the UK to work. Now, if De Bruyne had been South American, or for that matter Serbian, he wouldn';t have been free to move to the UK, he have needed to meet certain criteria (relating to international appearances and the quality of his national side) before he was granted a work permit to play for Manchester City. Now, for De Bruyne, this work permit route wouldn't have been an issue as both he and his country meet the criteria. Nolito however may not, were we to sign him. Spain certainly meet the quality criteria, but Nolito will not have played often enough for Spain over the last 2 years to qualify. So it's entirely possible that Nolito could be refused a work permit (in reality that won't happen as there will no doubt be an interim period at first however, after a period of time, that would be the scenario).

All of that is before we consider the impact on the academy. The Garcias, Brahim, Angelino, Ambrose etc would all be unable to join our academy. They'd be too young to be allowed to work here if we were outside of the EU, and they'd certainly fail to meet any criteria set for gaining a work permit at such a young age.

As I said, this is a miniscule issue in the grand scheme of things, but the fact you think being "in Europe" is the same as being "in the EU" is a little frightening given there will likely be thousands who hold a similar view and will be voting based on this completely flawed "understanding".

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Maybe. Can we assume that the half who voted to leave the UK will be voting to stay in the EU, and vice versa?...it's a fucked up world1

Difficult, but Scotland is generally considered to be Euro-friendly.

 

[Blue Mooner]

Legislation requests almost inevitably and 100% until fairly recently coming from the democratically elected council of ministers

Think there was a typo in this but if I understood you correctly you are absolutely and unequivocally wrong to suggest the council has any influence on legislation. They only play a part in 'approving' legislation drafted by the completely unelected commission bureaucrats. http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/decision-making/index_en.htm

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Think there was a typo in this but if I understood you correctly you are absolutely and unequivocally wrong to suggest the council has any influence on legislation. They only play a part in 'approving' legislation drafted by the completely unelected commission bureaucrats. http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/decision-making/index_en.htm

In a previous working life, I provided the Commission with proposed legislative changes to the European Wirking Time Directive that they progressed. I was working for the UK Government (under Ministerial Cover).

 

[EalingBlue2]

So that negates Scotland?

Is that more than snp , plaid and lib Dems?

 

[Blue Mooner]

The way it works is that the European Commission (and the Council for that matter) think through what MEPS are likely to agree to before progressing legislation.

It's far from perfect but the Commission don't just make up legislation. They consult with the Council of Ministers and the Social Partners!

That's as maybe the case but none of the European electorate have been able to vote on a proposed legislation for government and choose which legislation and policies most closely suits their needs. No better example of this than Jean Claude Juncker's confidence of saying we have the best deal we can get.

If that's a mode of government you favour, fair enough, but I want the people to be able to kick out a government whos legislative programme they don't agree with.

Our grandfather's fought to keep us free from a dictatorship

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Think there was a typo in this but if I understood you correctly you are absolutely and unequivocally wrong to suggest the council has any influence on legislation. They only play a part in 'approving' legislation drafted by the completely unelected commission bureaucrats. http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/decision-making/index_en.htm

Eh? That site says

• proposals are written (usually by unelected civil servants at the instruction of the government)
• the nations Council (government ministers) and the Parliament decide whether to adopt them

That's not that different from the British system is it? Laws proposed, argued, and a final form created.

Having approval must surely be influence.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Think there was a typo in this but if I understood you correctly you are absolutely and unequivocally wrong to suggest the council has any influence on legislation. They only play a part in 'approving' legislation drafted by the completely unelected commission bureaucrats. http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/decision-making/index_en.htm

Approve and drive the focus

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Is that more than snp , plaid and lib Dems?

Dunno. Including the Scottish Labour vote though will help, and the Scottish Conservative leader came over very well.

I was merely pointing out that saying UKIP gives Leave a haadstart can be offset by Scotland probably being Remain.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Very well researched and articulated post Madchester. How do you account for the fact that the vast majority of leaders of the economy, industry, political leadership,academia, arts, sport and other political heads of state all recommend that we remain? Please explain why they have got it wrong whilst your arguments are correct.

Being in charge of a major organisation appears to be leading many down the path of cautiousness. They don't want to risk their positions, I guess. Better the devil you know. A corporate decision, probably.

It's interesting that many 'former' leaders of large concerns have located their testicles once the burden of responsibility is lifted.

Looks like the accountants will vanquish the visionaries this time.

 

[Blue Mooner]

Eh? That site says

• proposals are written (usually by unelected civil servants at the instruction of the government)
• the nations Council (government ministers) and the Parliament decide whether to adopt them

That's not that different from the British system is it? Laws proposed, argued, and a final form created.

Having approval must surely be influence.

You havent quoted that accurately it states quite clearly 'in principle the European Commission (unelected) proposes new laws.

So no, its not the same. At what point are legislative 'proposals' put to the European electorate to vote on ? Where are the group of politicians saying in the next 5 years if you vote for us we will deliver XYZ?

In a democracy, It is elected politicians that put their ideas to the electorate, they get voted in on the basis of their broad proposals, then they draft legislation on the basis of that democratically elected programme.

The EU legislation is decided behind closed doors in the corridors of power in Brussels and involves horse trading at which point legislation is drafted and put to elected MEP's for approval. When did you vote for the free movement of individuals?

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

3.9 million voted for UKIP in general election. Probably add 1 million for people that agree but wouldnt vote for them that takes you to almost 5 million which is population of Scotland. so that pretty much sorts that bit out.
Then you have Wales and NI which equates to 4.8 million but about 20% voted ukip
Then ,maths and thinking comes in and it gets a bit complicated for me hahaha

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Maybe. Can we assume that the half who voted to leave the UK will be voting to stay in the EU, and vice versa?...it's a fucked up world1

I hope that if we vote to remain, and it shows that without the Scottish vote we would have voted leave, that should Scotland get independence another referendum is triggered.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Wealthy men all....oh and I have a doctorate.

well done, I have a cycling proficiency badge and a level 4 swimming certificate (4 lengths of the pool in my pyjamas) :-)

 

[manctheknife]

well done, I have a cycling proficiency badge and a level 4 swimming certificate (4 lengths of the pool in my pyjamas) :-)

Did I say Doctorate?...oops, I meant 11+.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

You havent quoted that accurately it states quite clearly 'in principle the European Commission (unelected) proposes new laws.

So no, its not the same. At what point are legislative 'proposals' put to the European electorate to vote on ? Where are the group of politicians saying in the next 5 years if you vote for us we will deliver XYZ?

In a democracy, It is elected politicians that put their ideas to the electorate, they get voted in on the basis of their broad proposals, then they draft legislation on the basis of that democratically elected programme.

The EU legislation is decided behind closed doors in the corridors of power in Brussels and involves horse trading at which point legislation is drafted and put to elected MEP's for approval. When did you vote for the free movement of individuals?

'Proposes' means exactly that. Just like in the UK, they gets reviewed and amended where there are strong objections.
The later stages are national government ministers review them (so our elected government have input), and then the MEPs decide whether to accept them.

The UK elected to stay in the EU in the 1970s; that was a democratic decision to accept the strictures of the time. The strictures have changed (I doubt anyone here is qualified to explain how clearly and without partisanship), and we now have another such democratic choice. It's longer than our 5 year cycle, but it's still democracy.

As for the personal question at the end on free movement, I'm not a politician, or an advisor to politicians, and therefore almost certainly do not understand the full ramifications and detail of that vote (a bit like this referendum in that matter). I didn't vote on non-manifesto laws either, but they still happen without complaint (it's the House of Lords main function is to highlight and comment on bad laws). However, each manifesto does have intentions on Europe. I assume that anyone who opposes the idea of free movement voted for UKIP at the election, and didn't at any point horsetrade that for other things they wanted. So, a bit like the Commission do with their proposals. (Yes, this is a bit reductive, but so is the point raised to me).

We don't vote on the wording of laws in the UK. We choose the people who do so.
We don't vote on the wording of laws in the EU. We elect a government and MEPs to do so.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Being in charge of a major organisation appears to be leading many down the path of cautiousness. They don't want to risk their positions, I guess. Better the devil you know. A corporate decision, probably.

It's interesting that many 'former' leaders of large concerns have located their testicles once the burden of responsibility is lifted.

Looks like the accountants will vanquish the visionaries this time.

I haven't found anything particularly visionary about the leave campaign. Quite the reverse actually. I don't pretend its an easy decision as it is tricky to unpick the untruths that both sides are peddling. But based on the research i have done, the pros of remaining outweigh the negatives. The pros of leave don't outweigh the negatives imo. Life will go on whatever the vote says and it will be an interesting period of political fallout whichever way it goes.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Did I say Doctorate?...oops, I meant 11+.

.....and a good few scout badges prior to being thrown out for bad behaviour.....

 

[BigJoe#1]

Before that post you thought we were voting to leave NATO?

You are a grade "A" thick as shit dipstick aren't you. Would you like to provide the slightest piece of evidence that would even hint that you have that would even begin to back up your silly statement....?

Thought not.