Euros Ref and VAR

[SkyBlueFlux]

But it's not new and improved VAR, it's same old manipulatable VAR but with flashy new pictures. It's insanity.

Genuine question - did you ever question the integrity of Goal Line Technology? If not, why is this any different?

There's zero way for the referee to influence the automated decision.

It then generates a graphic 5-10 mins after the decision process has been completed, in exactly the same way as Hawk-Eyes Goal Line Tech.

Are the toenail offsides silly? Yes, but only as silly as the John Stones 2mm goal line clearance that won us the league.

 

[the-ecstacy-of-eight]

Genuine question - did you ever question the integrity of Goal Line Technology? If not, why is this any different?

There's zero way for the referee to influence the automated decision.

It then generates a graphic 5-10 mins after the decision process has been completed, in exactly the same way as Hawk-Eyes Goal Line Tech.

Are the toenail offsides silly? Yes, but only as silly as the John Stones 2mm goal line clearance that won us the league.

Genuine question - Do you not remember Sheff United vs Villa in 2020?

There may be zero opportunity for the on-field ref to insert influence, but there is still certainly scope for the VAR official to manipulate outcomes....

"All player and ball data is processed in real time by AI, which triggers an alert to the VAR when an offside has been detected. The VAR must then validate that the kick point and offside line are accurate, and the offside player is active, and then inform the referee who can confirm or change the on-field decision." (taken from ESPN info communication - https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...ague-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)

Hopefully you mean 5-10 seconds not minutes :)

And one event in isolation did NOT win us the league

 

[Coljj]

It's a thread...

 

[Coljj]

Player and ball tracking in action...

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

Genuine question - Do you not remember Sheff United vs Villa in 2020?

There may be zero opportunity for the on-field ref to insert influence, but there is still certainly scope for the VAR official to manipulate outcomes....

"All player and ball data is processed in real time by AI, which triggers an alert to the VAR when an offside has been detected. The VAR must then validate that the kick point and offside line are accurate, and the offside player is active, and then inform the referee who can confirm or change the on-field decision." (taken from ESPN info communication - https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...ague-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)

Hopefully you mean 5-10 seconds not minutes :)

And one event in isolation did NOT win us the league

That's not what I asked, I asked if you questioned the integrity of it. The Sheffield United v Villa goal was an obvious error where the tech malfunctioned. I never claimed the technology was 100% error proof, but that's not the same as referees being able to manipulate it, is it?

And do you understand what validating means? It means they make sure there is no glaring and obvious problem - that doesn't mean they can arbitrarily change the kick point. I'll say it once more - they have zero power to change the kick point. The kick point is calculated by the system. If the system malfunctions and provides an obviously wrong conclusion (as happened in Sheffield United v Villa) then they are going to use the old system as a back-up. The Sheff Utd/Villa incident is pretty much the entire reason this step is being introduced.

And no. I mean 5-10 minutes. The graphical representation and the decision system are two different things. The decision system makes the call in seconds, the graphic is then built out in minutes after the fact. The two are not the same - the decision system has no graphical output. Yet another demonstration of people misunderstanding how this thing works at the most basic level.

 

[Gazza]

Player and ball tracking in action...

If Luke Shaw hears that there's a chip in the football, it's all over.

 

[the-ecstacy-of-eight]

That's not what I asked, I asked if you questioned the integrity of it. The Sheffield United v Villa goal was an obvious error where the tech malfunctioned. I never claimed the technology was 100% error proof, but that's not the same as referees being able to manipulate it, is it?

And do you understand what validating means? It means they make sure there is no glaring and obvious problem - that doesn't mean they can arbitrarily change the kick point. I'll say it once more - they have zero power to change the kick point. The kick point is calculated by the system. If the system malfunctions and provides an obviously wrong conclusion (as happened in Sheffield United v Villa) then they are going to use the old system as a back-up. The Sheff Utd/Villa incident is pretty much the entire reason this step is being introduced.

And no. I mean 5-10 minutes. The graphical representation and the decision system are two different things. The decision system makes the call in seconds, the graphic is then built out in minutes after the fact. The two are not the same - the decision system has no graphical output. Yet another demonstration of people misunderstanding how this thing works at the most basic level.

If you could talk down to me a little bit more that'd be great, thanks ;)

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

 

[FlemishDuck]

That's not what I asked, I asked if you questioned the integrity of it. The Sheffield United v Villa goal was an obvious error where the tech malfunctioned. I never claimed the technology was 100% error proof, but that's not the same as referees being able to manipulate it, is it?

I think i take more issue from what you describe with VAR. The big point i see with VAR, when all considerations are made about technical precision, is that the system cannot ever be utterly precise and reliable from a technical perspective withought consideration of a "deviation zone" but that otoh precision is not the main point as it mainly serves as a "neutral arbiter". VAR in that sense is a way in which you cant blame it on the ref anymore, the Ref can make VAR do his job and then you can only "blame VAR".

That shifts power and responsabillety away from the refs and puts it with technical personel. Then you suddently have to start asking yourself questions like "which frame do the technicians choose", like your camera has a limited FPS so when the ball is passed before a offside run you are unlikely to get a frame that was made on the exact microsecond upon which the player touched the ball. When you think about it, technical limitations will force the matter so that much is up to the interpretation of the technicians who sit behind VAR, "do i take the frame that was captured 5 microseconds after the action or 5 microseconds before".

VAR therefore is imho not about precission and correctness, but about legitimacy in arbitrage, its about the perception that the computer is always neutral.

 

[Stephen230]

Genuine question - Do you not remember Sheff United vs Villa in 2020?

There may be zero opportunity for the on-field ref to insert influence, but there is still certainly scope for the VAR official to manipulate outcomes....

"All player and ball data is processed in real time by AI, which triggers an alert to the VAR when an offside has been detected. The VAR must then validate that the kick point and offside line are accurate, and the offside player is active, and then inform the referee who can confirm or change the on-field decision." (taken from ESPN info communication - https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...ague-semi-automated-var-offside-all-need-know)

Hopefully you mean 5-10 seconds not minutes :)

And one event in isolation did NOT win us the league

They changed the protocol after that Villa incident, so the VAR manually checks all tight goal line technology decisions before the game kicks off.

He’s not manipulating anything. Just checking with his own eyes that there’s not been an obvious malfunction, like in the Villa game.

Don’t think there’s been one in England since. There was one in Germany last season, where a stray ball behind the goal line set off the ‘goal’ signal on the referee’s watch. The VAR took a quick look and immediately informed the referee that there was no goal.

It’s why the balls you see placed on plinths around the pitch these days are never positioned within the boundaries of the penalty area. They can set off the goal line technology.