Evidence for religion

[SWP's back]

Just trying to help you understand my position no need to be rude. I'm not using the overwhelming prevalence of religious faith as an argument from consensus, just as an illustration of the contrast with the tiny historic numbers of those who have none.

Yes, it was tough to work out why things happened - earthquakes, floods, crop failures, the tide, the movement of the moon and planets throughout human history one would imagine. I dare say I’d have believed any and every superstition that tried to explain them as well.

The growth of that group is a consequence of the lamentable failure of institutionalized religion and the many artificial diversionary excitements of a globalized consumerist culture.

The growth of that group is entirely due to level and quality of education and the fact we don’t need to invoke a god to explain everything. It’s an absolute fact that religious fervour decrease as education improves, across a population.

The ancients mused the earth may be supported by four elephants on the back of a tortoise, nowadays a pre-singularity multiverse is de rigueur - little to choose between them in terms of plausibility really.

Only if you have little interest or understanding of quantum physics.

In passing I'd also point out that your ancestors were not so different from you. Irrespective of where and when they lived and its just plain wrong to think their powers of thought and reasoning are qualitatively inferior to yours.

They were poorly educated and lacking in the scientific background and evidence we now have. Christ, even my father was taught in the 50’s that ancient animals moved between Africa and South America on land bridges that fell below the sea (as plate tectonics weren’t understood). The scientific method is able to explain the phenomena to which supernatural causes would have enabled ancestors of mine to subscribe to god. The church spent nearly 100 years rejecting the idea of evolution until the evidence became so stark that they couldn’t anymore (at which point they decide Genesis was allegorical). They did the same with the theory of heliocentricity (but not before sentencing Galileo to house arrest for heresy obviously).

Is it any surprise that people throughout history but their faith in god? Most had no education as mentioned but also a bleak future toiling for survival. It’s hardly a shock that they would cling to the promise of an eternal paradise (so long as they kept toiling for the feudal lord in this one for their 30 off years before they succumbed to illness - also odd that your god was fine with people dying earlier throughout history as that was his will, then after the discovery of penicillin and advance of science, he’s happy for us to thrive that bit longer).

Have you really not understood yet that the question of the existence or non-existence of God is not a scientific one?

Well ain’t that lucky for you George.

It is a different category of enquiry from whether flying spaghetti monsters or unicorns exist

No it isn’t. You’d just have it that way because it upsets you when people reduce your [reason for existence and a key tenet of your life and] faith to being something that can be mocked a la the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

As Wittgenstein put it: “Faith is faith in what is needed by my heart, my soul, not my speculative intelligence… Only love can believe the Resurrection.”

Yeah that just makes me feel sad for you.

 

[George Hannah]

It's a genuine question though. I hear the argument from the more enlightened religious that it's not so much the specifics of the god you worship that matters, just as long as you worship 'a creator', and give thanks. So if I choose to give thanks to the force, and the prophet yoda, surely this is on a par?

The concept of God is much deeper than you describe friend. I'm not sure where you got those parameters from but they don't resonate with any religion I am familiar with.

 

[Magicpole]

How does one prove the non-existence of something?

To quote you “I’ll help you, you can’t”

It’s funny that the people making the claim for their delusions, rather than proving their case, prefer to ask us to disprove it.

We can prove evolution so Adam and Eve is bollocks.

We can prove the earth isn’t the centre of the universe or flat.

We can prove stars couldn’t fall to the earth.

We can prove meteors are natural and not forbidding messages.

We can prove we are related to every single living thing on the planet through DNA.

We can prove there wasn’t a great flood. Or an ark filled with 2 of everything.

We can reasonably assert that Noah wasn’t 800 years old and his sons five hundred.

We can prove that Galileo was right and shouldn’t have had to recant to save his life. Or endure house arrest for the remainder of it.

We can prove that there were at least 30 other made up gods who have the same back story as Jesus.

We can prove no **** get cured at Lourdes.

We can prove prayer doesn’t work.

We can prove demonic possession is mental health, schizophrenia or epilepsy.

We can prove that loads of other deluded feel as strongly about their god as Christians do. They can’t all be right.

Ask them to give one piece of proof for anything and they say you can prove he doesn’t.

Well no one can prove I don’t get visited every night by Emily Blunt for frantic sex, but, who believes she does?

Cop out saying it can’t be disproved. You cannot disprove that there is a group of universe making pixies out there either, again, you would need to be fucking demented to try.

But say god made the world in seven days. He raped Mary and his son cut about with 12 guys but hated gays, doing miracles, and people believe it.

If you read his book he is an utter ****. Why would you even want to?

 

[George Hannah]

Yes, it was tough to work out why things happened - earthquakes, floods, crop failures, the tide, the movement of the moon and planets throughout human history one would imagine. I dare say I’d have believed any and every superstition that tried to explain them as well.

The growth of that group is entirely due to level and quality of education and the fact we don’t need to invoke a god to explain everything. It’s an absolute fact that religious fervour decrease as education improves, across a population.



Only if you have little interest or understanding of quantum physics.



They were poorly educated and lacking in the scientific background and evidence we now have. Christ, even my father was taught in the 50’s that ancient animals moved between Africa and South America on land bridges that fell below the sea (as plate tectonics weren’t understood). The scientific method is able to explain the phenomena to which supernatural causes would have enabled ancestors of mine to subscribe to god. The church spent nearly 100 years rejecting the idea of evolution until the evidence became so stark that they couldn’t anymore (at which point they decide Genesis was allegorical). They did the same with the theory of heliocentricity (but not before sentencing Galileo to house arrest for heresy obviously).

Is it any surprise that people throughout history but their faith in god? Most had no education as mentioned but also a bleak future toiling for survival. It’s hardly a shock that they would cling to the promise of an eternal paradise (so long as they kept toiling for the feudal lord in this one for their 30 off years before they succumbed to illness - also odd that your god was fine with people dying earlier throughout history as that was his will, then after the discovery of penicillin and advance of science, he’s happy for us to thrive that bit longer).

Well ain’t that lucky for you George.

No it isn’t. You’d just have it that way because it upsets you when people reduce your [reason for existence and a key tenet of your life and] faith to being something that can be mocked a la the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Yeah that just makes me feel sad for you.

Thanks Sam, your a tonic.

 

[tonea2003]

Conflict is completely unnecessary and I'm sorry if my attempts to explain my views fall short of your expectations.

my expectations? mate if you claim something i don't agree with i'll ask you to qualify it. its as simple as that, its never changed you know that

 

[bluejon]

The concept of God is much deeper than you describe friend. I'm not sure where you got those parameters from but they don't resonate with any religion I am familiar with.

So you are saying there is only one god, it's yours, and everyone else who doesn't follow your god has it wrong?

 

[SWP's back]

If you read his book he is an utter ****. Why would you even want to?

A good point, not made often enough.

 

[George Hannah]

It’s funny that the people making the claim for their delusions, rather than proving their case, prefer to ask us to disprove it.

We can prove evolution so Adam and Eve is bollocks.

We can prove the earth isn’t the centre of the universe or flat.

We can prove stars couldn’t fall to the earth.

We can prove meteors are natural and not forbidding messages.

We can prove we are related to every single living thing on the planet through DNA.

We can prove there wasn’t a great flood. Or an ark filled with 2 of everything.

We can reasonably assert that Noah wasn’t 800 years old and his sons five hundred.

We can prove that Galileo was right and shouldn’t have had to recant to save his life. Or endure house arrest for the remainder of it.

We can prove that there were at least 30 other made up gods who have the same back story as Jesus.

We can prove no **** get cured at Lourdes.

We can prove prayer doesn’t work.

We can prove demonic possession is mental health, schizophrenia or epilepsy.

We can prove that loads of other deluded feel as strongly about their god as Christians do. They can’t all be right.

Ask them to give one piece of proof for anything and they say you can prove he doesn’t.

Well no one can prove I don’t get visited every night by Emily Blunt for frantic sex, but, who believes she does?

Cop out saying it can’t be disproved. You cannot disprove that there is a group of universe making pixies out there either, again, you would need to be fucking demented to try.

But say god made the world in seven days. He raped Mary and his son cut about with 12 guys but hated gays, doing miracles, and people believe it.

If you read his book he is an utter ****. Why would you even want to?

I think that post represents a systematic misuse of the verb 'to prove'. You are what is known in the trade as 'epistemologically challenged' ;)

 

[Magicpole]

I think that post represents a systematic misuse of the verb 'to prove'. You are what is known in the trade as 'epistemologically challenged' ;)

And you are what’s called blinded by faith.

 

[George Hannah]

A good point, not made often enough.

good?