Fernandinho

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Have to say I'm in agreement with Mammulty over Fernandinho. I know it's not a popular view on here and all the experts will tell me about what he does off the ball and how great he is at breaking up the opposing attacks and making the simple ball to our more creative players is worth more than its weight in gold but from what I've seen so far is an average to decent footballer whom is never in a million years worth what we paid for him and before anyone tells me its not my money so why should I be bothered what we paid, the point is for the money he cost I expect better quality and surely there are players out there with more to offer. I've watched him lose the ball quite often or e caught in possession looking for more time and then he is left making a late tackle resulting in a number of bookongs so far. It's just my opinion and I'll be more than happy to be proved wrong but so far I'm unimpressed.

When I watch him, I see Ramirez at Chelsea. Perhaps at his best, he'd be slightly superior. So yes, he is not a 34 million dollar player in my opinion. But he is a very good Centra mid. He is better than anyone we have or have lost at that position: Barry included.

In hindsight, we should probably have gotten Paulihno instead. Cheaper, younger, more rounded, and presumably (at least so far) better!

I think Ramires is a much better player but to be fair he's been playing in the Premier a lot longer and it make take Fernandinho some time to adjust. For now I just see an average to good midfielder and at the level we are now competing week in week out on all fronts the players at this club need to be better than that. I still think as fans we've not collectively come to terms with the level we're now at and what is demanded to stay here and then go that bit extra to win trophies. We rightly don't want to criticise our players but I think we're also maybe a little too patient on them. Ok so we're not yet and possibly never will be a Barca, Madrid or Bayern type club but Fergie at United when building his dynasty wouldn't accept anything but the best from the start and I think we have to be a little more pushy with our expectations.

I think that's a great shout about Paulinho, the titles up for grabs this year and I think Spurs could well be the ones to steal the title this season.

I see one of the most overrated players in the league in Ramires, time after time I see him run off with the ball and then have fuck all idea what to do with it and lose it, and he gives away lots of silly fouls as well.

Paulinho has proven in the first month or so alone that had he come here he'd have got in the way of Yaya and we'd have been far too unbalanced in midfield, of the 3 Fernandinho is definitely the most suited player to the role we needed to fill, and he's doing a good, ever improving and increasingly unappreciated and understated job.

 

[Blue2112]

When I watch him, I see Ramirez at Chelsea. Perhaps at his best, he'd be slightly superior. So yes, he is not a 34 million dollar player in my opinion. But he is a very good Centra mid. He is better than anyone we have or have lost at that position: Barry included.

In hindsight, we should probably have gotten Paulihno instead. Cheaper, younger, more rounded, and presumably (at least so far) better!

I think Ramires is a much better player but to be fair he's been playing in the Premier a lot longer and it make take Fernandinho some time to adjust. For now I just see an average to good midfielder and at the level we are now competing week in week out on all fronts the players at this club need to be better than that. I still think as fans we've not collectively come to terms with the level we're now at and what is demanded to stay here and then go that bit extra to win trophies. We rightly don't want to criticise our players but I think we're also maybe a little too patient on them. Ok so we're not yet and possibly never will be a Barca, Madrid or Bayern type club but Fergie at United when building his dynasty wouldn't accept anything but the best from the start and I think we have to be a little more pushy with our expectations.

I think that's a great shout about Paulinho, the titles up for grabs this year and I think Spurs could well be the ones to steal the title this season.

I see one of the most overrated players in the league in Ramires, time after time I see him run off with the ball and then have fuck all idea what to do with it and lose it, and he gives away lots of silly fouls as well.

Paulinho has proven in the first month or so alone that had he come here he'd have got in the way of Yaya and we'd have been far too unbalanced in midfield, of the 3 Fernandinho is definitely the most suited player to the role we needed to fill, and he's doing a good, ever improving and increasingly unappreciated and understated job.

I keep seeing this from posters defending Fernandinho and its as if those of us who may not be so far impressed with him are somehow not knowledgeable or do not appreciate what he does. I think those of us that are yet unimpressed do see what he does and remain unimpressed by it, whether that be running off the ball, simple but effective break up of play, simple passes etc. Yes he may well be doing all these things brilliantly but does that constitute a 30/35m footballer?

 

[conormcfc]

Yes! Until this season, Diego Costa was more of an enigma than a good player by any stretch of the imagination. So yes, Fred is a better striker, Longer period of consistency and greatly experienced. Costa is having a breakout season, but that is no reason to suddenly assume he is better than Fred. As for Jo, well that one beats me.

Consistency?

Fred's record in Europe :

119 starts - 41 goals

Released on a free by Lyon after contributing nothing in his last 2 years there. No other European club would go near him.

Costa's record in Europe:

63 starts - 32 goals

Spanish football federation attempting to call him up to play for them instead of Brazil.

If Fred was anything more than an average goalpoacher he'd have been starting in that Brazil team for years.

Getting way off topic now, but here you go:

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=98952" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">viewtopic.php?f=1&t=98952</a>

So a thread made in December of that year, as I've already pointed out this is irrelevant to the point you made about telling everyone how bad he was 'after 4 or 5 games'.

The record only goes back that far. At the time he had played just over 600 mins and my opinion at that time was certain, but I'd expressed significant doubts before then.

I am anyway not making the same comments in relation to Fernandinho, who I do think is a decent player. Just nothing special.

The database goes back to August before he'd even played a game for us, but whatever. I'll drop it.

 

[kenzie115]

Is Fernandinho becoming the new Barry? Serially underrated by the ignorant? If so, I like him even more.

 

[conormcfc]

I think Ramires is a much better player but to be fair he's been playing in the Premier a lot longer and it make take Fernandinho some time to adjust. For now I just see an average to good midfielder and at the level we are now competing week in week out on all fronts the players at this club need to be better than that. I still think as fans we've not collectively come to terms with the level we're now at and what is demanded to stay here and then go that bit extra to win trophies. We rightly don't want to criticise our players but I think we're also maybe a little too patient on them. Ok so we're not yet and possibly never will be a Barca, Madrid or Bayern type club but Fergie at United when building his dynasty wouldn't accept anything but the best from the start and I think we have to be a little more pushy with our expectations.

I think that's a great shout about Paulinho, the titles up for grabs this year and I think Spurs could well be the ones to steal the title this season.

I see one of the most overrated players in the league in Ramires, time after time I see him run off with the ball and then have fuck all idea what to do with it and lose it, and he gives away lots of silly fouls as well.

Paulinho has proven in the first month or so alone that had he come here he'd have got in the way of Yaya and we'd have been far too unbalanced in midfield, of the 3 Fernandinho is definitely the most suited player to the role we needed to fill, and he's doing a good, ever improving and increasingly unappreciated and understated job.

I keep seeing this from posters defending Fernandinho and its as if those of us who may not be so far impressed with him are somehow not knowledgeable or do not appreciate what he does. I think those of us that are yet unimpressed do see what he does and remain unimpressed by it, whether that be running off the ball, simple but effective break up of play, simple passes etc. Yes he may well be doing all these things brilliantly but does that constitute a 30/35m footballer?

That's the price you play for these players. Busquets, Khedira and Javi Martinez are 3 great exponents of these attributes and all 3 would cost into a similar price range (Busquets even pricier). Playing in a 2 man midfield with an expansive player like Yaya, it's hard to understand what it is exactly that you want Fernandinho to do other than that job. It's the same job that the 3 aforementioned players do every week, only those 3 have the protection of an extra central midfielder. Fernandinho does not.

 

[Blue2112]

Is Fernandinho becoming the new Barry? Serially underrated by the ignorant? If so, I like him even more.

And there it is again. If you dare to question a player on this board then you are ignorant, unappreciative, don't see what they do, know nothing about football, asked what coaching badges you have and on and on. Like it or not we all have opinions, granted some are far too quick to judge a player but equally the same can be said for those who defend said player and then question or put down any would be knockers. Only time will tell about Fernandinho and others, hell the Dzeko debate is now into its third season and I still can't determine whether or not he's been a success by reading the views on this board.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I think Ramires is a much better player but to be fair he's been playing in the Premier a lot longer and it make take Fernandinho some time to adjust. For now I just see an average to good midfielder and at the level we are now competing week in week out on all fronts the players at this club need to be better than that. I still think as fans we've not collectively come to terms with the level we're now at and what is demanded to stay here and then go that bit extra to win trophies. We rightly don't want to criticise our players but I think we're also maybe a little too patient on them. Ok so we're not yet and possibly never will be a Barca, Madrid or Bayern type club but Fergie at United when building his dynasty wouldn't accept anything but the best from the start and I think we have to be a little more pushy with our expectations.

I think that's a great shout about Paulinho, the titles up for grabs this year and I think Spurs could well be the ones to steal the title this season.

I see one of the most overrated players in the league in Ramires, time after time I see him run off with the ball and then have fuck all idea what to do with it and lose it, and he gives away lots of silly fouls as well.

Paulinho has proven in the first month or so alone that had he come here he'd have got in the way of Yaya and we'd have been far too unbalanced in midfield, of the 3 Fernandinho is definitely the most suited player to the role we needed to fill, and he's doing a good, ever improving and increasingly unappreciated and understated job.

I keep seeing this from posters defending Fernandinho and its as if those of us who may not be so far impressed with him are somehow not knowledgeable or do not appreciate what he does. I think those of us that are yet unimpressed do see what he does and remain unimpressed by it, whether that be running off the ball, simple but effective break up of play, simple passes etc. Yes he may well be doing all these things brilliantly but does that constitute a 30/35m footballer?

It does when it's allowed Yaya to play his best football so far for us and we are much more fluid in attack.

 

[Blue2112]

I see one of the most overrated players in the league in Ramires, time after time I see him run off with the ball and then have fuck all idea what to do with it and lose it, and he gives away lots of silly fouls as well.

Paulinho has proven in the first month or so alone that had he come here he'd have got in the way of Yaya and we'd have been far too unbalanced in midfield, of the 3 Fernandinho is definitely the most suited player to the role we needed to fill, and he's doing a good, ever improving and increasingly unappreciated and understated job.

I keep seeing this from posters defending Fernandinho and its as if those of us who may not be so far impressed with him are somehow not knowledgeable or do not appreciate what he does. I think those of us that are yet unimpressed do see what he does and remain unimpressed by it, whether that be running off the ball, simple but effective break up of play, simple passes etc. Yes he may well be doing all these things brilliantly but does that constitute a 30/35m footballer?

It does when it's allowed Yaya to play his best football so far for us and we are much more fluid in attack.

I take your point (although not for 35m) but as yet I don't think we've seen the Yaya from two seasons ago when we played with Barry and De Jong in the side, he's scoring for sure and has been dominant in a couple of games but has still been missing in others. I'll wait until we've played 19 games then reassess Fernandinho's value to the team as United aside I don't think we've played anyone of note so far and I'd take Barry (age apart) over him all day long.

 

[daxman]

Yes! Until this season, Diego Costa was more of an enigma than a good player by any stretch of the imagination. So yes, Fred is a better striker, Longer period of consistency and greatly experienced. Costa is having a breakout season, but that is no reason to suddenly assume he is better than Fred. As for Jo, well that one beats me.

Consistency?

Fred's record in Europe :

119 starts - 41 goals

Released on a free by Lyon after contributing nothing in his last 2 years there. No other European club would go near him.

Costa's record in Europe:

63 starts - 32 goals

Spanish football federation attempting to call him up to play for them instead of Brazil.

If Fred was anything more than an average goalpoacher he'd have been starting in that Brazil team for years.

Getting way off topic now, but here you go:

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=98952" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">viewtopic.php?f=1&t=98952</a>

So a thread made in December of that year, as I've already pointed out this is irrelevant to the point you made about telling everyone how bad he was 'after 4 or 5 games'.

There are 2 problem with your reasoning here:
1) You are judging Fred on his record in Europe. He isn't trying to play for Europe, he is trying to play for Brazil.
2) You are judging Fred on his perfomance 5 years ago: Clear recency issue there.

But let me start by painting a different picture of your argument: Fred played 4 seasons at Lyon: 1st Season he netted 14 in 32 league games. 2nd season he missed 2.5 months and still netted 11 in 20 league games. In both seasons He was top scorer on the Squad and they won the league. In his 3rd season he was injured again, came back but Lyon had purchase Baros and the "Next Zidane" Benzema was the toast of the town. So Fred got fewer games, and still scored 7 in 21 league games. In his final season, he had he only scored 2 goals in 15 appearance, but by then he already wanted out and was down. He asked to be released and he was.

Now why that record is not spectacular, it suggests a poor fit rather than a poor player. Now as soon as he was releases and joined Fluminese, suddenly he was lighting it up again. With Flair, vision and skill of Brazilians all around him, he's strengths were highlighted and he was scoring freely again.
At the club level he has scored 251 goals in 415 appearances: Better than a goal every other game. And this includes 2 upheavel years at Lyon.

Now as for your Costa stats, I don't know where you got those from: Even if we ignored the 85 odd games in Europe between 2006 - 2009 when he was mostly being loaned out to second division clubs, and only scored 19 times in those 85 games.
If we start in 2009 when Athletico originally sold him to Valladolid with a buyback option, he has played 123 games and scored 48 goals. And even if you are only considering his Athletico games.

So even from a statistical point alone, your argument is not foolproof. But the recency and overestimation of European records even weaken it more. Sure Costa is having a great start to the new season, and seems to be on the verge of becoming a legitimate superb striker. But this is not enough evidence to suggest he is better than Fred. Who by the way is doing it also for both club and country.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I keep seeing this from posters defending Fernandinho and its as if those of us who may not be so far impressed with him are somehow not knowledgeable or do not appreciate what he does. I think those of us that are yet unimpressed do see what he does and remain unimpressed by it, whether that be running off the ball, simple but effective break up of play, simple passes etc. Yes he may well be doing all these things brilliantly but does that constitute a 30/35m footballer?

It does when it's allowed Yaya to play his best football so far for us and we are much more fluid in attack.

I take your point (although not for 35m) but as yet I don't think we've seen the Yaya from two seasons ago when we played with Barry and De Jong in the side, he's scoring for sure and has been dominant in a couple of games but has still been missing in others. I'll wait until we've played 19 games then reassess Fernandinho's value to the team as United aside I don't think we've played anyone of note so far and I'd take Barry (age apart) over him all day long.

I wouldn't, I was sick of Barry in the final year, sick of how slow he was, sick of his really persistent fouling (Fernandinho ain't a patch on that) and his convenient own goals.

Was so happy when he was upgraded.