Fernandinho

[conormcfc]

Yes! Until this season, Diego Costa was more of an enigma than a good player by any stretch of the imagination. So yes, Fred is a better striker, Longer period of consistency and greatly experienced. Costa is having a breakout season, but that is no reason to suddenly assume he is better than Fred. As for Jo, well that one beats me.

Consistency?

Fred's record in Europe :

119 starts - 41 goals

Released on a free by Lyon after contributing nothing in his last 2 years there. No other European club would go near him.

Costa's record in Europe:

63 starts - 32 goals

Spanish football federation attempting to call him up to play for them instead of Brazil.

If Fred was anything more than an average goalpoacher he'd have been starting in that Brazil team for years.

Getting way off topic now, but here you go:

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So a thread made in December of that year, as I've already pointed out this is irrelevant to the point you made about telling everyone how bad he was 'after 4 or 5 games'.

There are 2 problem with your reasoning here:
1) You are judging Fred on his record in Europe. He isn't trying to play for Europe, he is trying to play for Brazil.
2) You are judging Fred on his perfomance 5 years ago: Clear recency issue there.

But let me start by painting a different picture of your argument: Fred played 4 seasons at Lyon: 1st Season he netted 14 in 32 league games. 2nd season he missed 2.5 months and still netted 11 in 20 league games. In both seasons He was top scorer on the Squad and they won the league. In his 3rd season he was injured again, came back but Lyon had purchase Baros and the "Next Zidane" Benzema was the toast of the town. So Fred got fewer games, and still scored 7 in 21 league games. In his final season, he had he only scored 2 goals in 15 appearance, but by then he already wanted out and was down. He asked to be released and he was.

Now why that record is not spectacular, it suggests a poor fit rather than a poor player. Now as soon as he was releases and joined Fluminese, suddenly he was lighting it up again. With Flair, vision and skill of Brazilians all around him, he's strengths were highlighted and he was scoring freely again.
At the club level he has scored 251 goals in 415 appearances: Better than a goal every other game. And this includes 2 upheavel years at Lyon.

Now as for your Costa stats, I don't know where you got those from: Even if we ignored the 85 odd games in Europe between 2006 - 2009 when he was mostly being loaned out to second division clubs, and only scored 19 times in those 85 games.
If we start in 2009 when Athletico originally sold him to Valladolid with a buyback option, he has played 123 games and scored 48 goals. And even if you are only considering his Athletico games.

So even from a statistical point alone, your argument is not foolproof. But the recency and overestimation of European records even weaken it more. Sure Costa is having a great start to the new season, and seems to be on the verge of becoming a legitimate superb striker. But this is not enough evidence to suggest he is better than Fred. Who by the way is doing it also for both club and country.

I could give you a list of players who've scored freely in Brazil but it would take hours to read. That's why I'm judging him on his European performances. As I've said, he has only recently broke back into the Brazil first team under Scolari. With the problems Brazil have had in the last few years with strikers, he would've had a place nailed down for ages if he'd shown some quality on a consistent basis.

As for the Costa stats. I said STARTS, not appearances. Also, the guy is 24, I'm hardly gonna be listing stats from when he was 17 am I? This season is the first time he's actually been a first choice striker, look at his return. Even without the goals he'd still bring more to a game than Fred, guy is a poacher and nothing more. I was well pissed off when we were being linked to him this summer.

 

[Blue2112]

It does when it's allowed Yaya to play his best football so far for us and we are much more fluid in attack.

I take your point (although not for 35m) but as yet I don't think we've seen the Yaya from two seasons ago when we played with Barry and De Jong in the side, he's scoring for sure and has been dominant in a couple of games but has still been missing in others. I'll wait until we've played 19 games then reassess Fernandinho's value to the team as United aside I don't think we've played anyone of note so far and I'd take Barry (age apart) over him all day long.

I wouldn't, I was sick of Barry in the final year, sick of how slow he was, sick of his really persistent fouling (Fernandinho ain't a patch on that) and his convenient own goals.

Was so happy when he was upgraded.

To be fair I did say age apart as it became obvious Barry was slowing up and I did say the Barry from two seasons ago. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that that Barry didn't cost us 35m and my initial point in my first post was that Fernandinho ain't never a 35m footballer. As for persistent fouls five games started and three yellow cards doesn't bode well add to that no assists, no goals and one shot so far. That's not to say I'm slating him I'm just unimpressed to date but I hope he proves me wrong.

 

[grim up north]

I take your point (although not for 35m) but as yet I don't think we've seen the Yaya from two seasons ago when we played with Barry and De Jong in the side, he's scoring for sure and has been dominant in a couple of games but has still been missing in others. I'll wait until we've played 19 games then reassess Fernandinho's value to the team as United aside I don't think we've played anyone of note so far and I'd take Barry (age apart) over him all day long.

I wouldn't, I was sick of Barry in the final year, sick of how slow he was, sick of his really persistent fouling (Fernandinho ain't a patch on that) and his convenient own goals.

Was so happy when he was upgraded.

To be fair I did say age apart as it became obvious Barry was slowing up and I did say the Barry from two seasons ago. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that that Barry didn't cost us 35m and my initial point in my first post was that Fernandinho ain't never a 35m footballer. As for persistent fouls five games started and three yellow cards doesn't bode well add to that no assists, no goals and one shot so far. That's not to say I'm slating him I'm just unimpressed to date but I hope he proves me wrong.

Fernandinho didn't cost you a penny. We paid 35 m because we wanted that player to play the role he does. The powers that be know what they paid for he allows our creative players to assist and create

 

[daxman]

I keep seeing this from posters defending Fernandinho and its as if those of us who may not be so far impressed with him are somehow not knowledgeable or do not appreciate what he does. I think those of us that are yet unimpressed do see what he does and remain unimpressed by it, whether that be running off the ball, simple but effective break up of play, simple passes etc. Yes he may well be doing all these things brilliantly but does that constitute a 30/35m footballer?

It does when it's allowed Yaya to play his best football so far for us and we are much more fluid in attack.

I take your point (although not for 35m) but as yet I don't think we've seen the Yaya from two seasons ago when we played with Barry and De Jong in the side, he's scoring for sure and has been dominant in a couple of games but has still been missing in others. I'll wait until we've played 19 games then reassess Fernandinho's value to the team as United aside I don't think we've played anyone of note so far and I'd take Barry (age apart) over him all day long.

So the 35 million dollar aside (a point I agree with you on), why is Barry better exactly in your opinion?

 

[conormcfc]

To be fair I did say age apart as it became obvious Barry was slowing up and I did say the Barry from two seasons ago. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that that Barry didn't cost us 35m and my initial point in my first post was that Fernandinho ain't never a 35m footballer. As for persistent fouls five games started and three yellow cards doesn't bode well add to that no assists, no goals and one shot so far. That's not to say I'm slating him I'm just unimpressed to date but I hope he proves me wrong.

That's the price you play for these players. Busquets, Khedira and Javi Martinez are 3 great exponents of these attributes and all 3 would cost into a similar price range (Busquets even pricier). Playing in a 2 man midfield with an expansive player like Yaya, it's hard to understand what it is exactly that you want Fernandinho to do other than that job. It's the same job that the 3 aforementioned players do every week, only those 3 have the protection of an extra central midfielder. Fernandinho does not.

^^

These players might not be that valuable in your eyes, but to these teams (and ours) they obviously are. That's why Bayern paid 40m for one.

 

[Blue2112]

I wouldn't, I was sick of Barry in the final year, sick of how slow he was, sick of his really persistent fouling (Fernandinho ain't a patch on that) and his convenient own goals.

Was so happy when he was upgraded.

To be fair I did say age apart as it became obvious Barry was slowing up and I did say the Barry from two seasons ago. I suppose the point I was trying to make was that that Barry didn't cost us 35m and my initial point in my first post was that Fernandinho ain't never a 35m footballer. As for persistent fouls five games started and three yellow cards doesn't bode well add to that no assists, no goals and one shot so far. That's not to say I'm slating him I'm just unimpressed to date but I hope he proves me wrong.

Fernandinho didn't cost you a penny. We paid 35 m because we wanted that player to play the role he does. The powers that be know what they paid for he allows our creative players to assist and create

I addressed the it didn't cost me a penny earlier, it's a lame point and it's really not the point otherwise we might as well close the forum and end all discussion and debates on City as none of the players cost any of us a single penny. It's a forum and so it's up for debate. I'd also suggest paying extortionate fee's does have an effect on the club for one whenever we go to buy another player but that's not the issue here. Now over the past 41 years I've seen plenty of powers that be buy what they thought was the correct player and yet get it wrong, hopefully as I keep saying I want Fernandinho to be brilliant for us but if we're going down the road of can't question or discuss a player because the powers that be wanted him then like I said lets close the forum here and now. We're all City fan's and we will all debate the players, the tactics, what was the best ever socks we've worn and yes even the value of our transfer fee's whether that's here or down the pub.

 

[Blue2112]

It does when it's allowed Yaya to play his best football so far for us and we are much more fluid in attack.

I take your point (although not for 35m) but as yet I don't think we've seen the Yaya from two seasons ago when we played with Barry and De Jong in the side, he's scoring for sure and has been dominant in a couple of games but has still been missing in others. I'll wait until we've played 19 games then reassess Fernandinho's value to the team as United aside I don't think we've played anyone of note so far and I'd take Barry (age apart) over him all day long.

So the 35 million dollar aside (a point I agree with you on), why is Barry better exactly in your opinion?

Firstly the time was right for Barry to be replaced and only time will tell if Fernandinho is the right choice, some already think he is and some of us want to see a little more before getting his name printed on the back of our favourite shirt.

Barry in our title winning season I thought was outstanding in that he always offered himself to receive the ball all over the pitch keeping it moving, neat passing, breaking up play (your argument would be similarly to what Fernandinho offers us) often falling back into defence and bringing the ball out. The football under Mancini that season is the best I've seen as a City supporter, scoring goals freely and breaking records all over the place and Barry was an integral part of that great passing always allowing Yaya and Silva the freedom to bomb forward (Yaya) or float around threading through pinpoint passes (Silva) was built on the back of Barry mopping up most things behind them. Even David Silva at the end of that title winning season voted Barry as his player of the season as he allowed himself (Silva) the freedom of the park always being there breaking it down and being the glue in midfield. Personally that one game for England when he was clearly unfit and Ozil made him look like a conference league player was the worst thing that could have happened to his international career. The press jumped all over him but you only miss players like Barry when they're not there and England have yet to find a replacement for him. Goalkeeper Hart also realised Barry's value, saying: “Gareth is the man. When you start to panic, look at Gareth and he just keeps on doing what he is doing – and doing the unselfish role he does.”

Yes Barry never found the same form last season but neither did anyone at City as we had a hangover from that amazing title victory and he's paid the price this season. Yet he goes to Everton and has a blinder of a debut, let's hope next week if he plays against us he reverts back to his Southampton performance.

 

[Jumanji]

^He can't play against us mate.

 

[Blue2112]

^He can't play against us mate.

I wasn't sure but thanks for clearing that up cheers.

 

[Benarbia]

He's just a steady eddy for me no more no less