Game of Thrones (season 8)

[manlikepep]

I suspect the dead in the crypt will be reanimated but like uncle Benji they will be compis-mentis and protect the living Starks. There is just so much in the books about the Starks being able to resist White Walkers - including the oft repeated phrase: "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell".

Benji was like that because when he was left for dead the children of the forest put dragon glass in him to stop him turning into a white walker. He didn’t resist the magic.

 

[7evens]

I actually hope that is the case, as otherwise my opinion of the writing for this final season will go down even further.

Heavy foreshadowing isn't bad writing.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Benji was like that because when he was left for dead the children of the forest put dragon glass in him to stop him turning into a white walker. He didn’t resist the magic.

Good point but the continual: "There must be a Stark at Winterfell" must have some meaning.

 

[manlikepep]

Good point but the continual: "There must be a Stark at Winterfell" must have some meaning.

Absolutely. I am 100% certain they will lose Winterfell though.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Heavy foreshadowing isn't bad writing.

Foreshadowing isn’t bad writing, I agree with that. In fact, it is usually necessary to have plot developments feel natural, rather than forced or completely out of step with the story thus far.

Excessive foreshadowing *is* bad writing, and most often leads to banal story development, which ruins the experience. Often the difference between middling and great stories is how stupid the writer treats their viewers (or how lazy the writer was with assessing their viewers’ intelligence). And the heavier the foreshadowing, the less intelligence expected from the viewer. “We need to spell it out for them otherwise they won’t understand” or “oi, it’s good enough, let’s move on.”

I am just hoping the crypt (and a few other) elements from the first two episodes didn’t actually completely telegraph the story moving forward, as that would be very disappointing.

 

[The Black Shed]

It's time for Sam to come to the party

 

[7evens]

Foreshadowing isn’t bad writing, I agree with that. In fact, it is usually necessary to have plot developments feel natural, rather than forced or completely out of step with the story thus far.

Excessive foreshadowing *is* bad writing, and most often leads to banal story development, which ruins the experience. Often the difference between middling and great stories is how stupid the writer treats their viewers (or how lazy the writer was with assessing their viewers’ intelligence). And the heavier the foreshadowing, the less intelligence expected from the viewer. “We need to spell it out for them otherwise they won’t understand” or “oi, it’s good enough, let’s move on.”

I am just hoping the crypt (and a few other) elements from the first two episodes didn’t actually completely telegraph the story moving forward, as that would be very disappointing.

I do see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's completely unnatural for the characters to be mentioning the crypts in this context. Whenever the crypts are mentioned they're at least brought up organically. Gendry mentions the crypts to Arya because he hasn't seen what she's capable of, Gilly and Davos mention the crypts to a little girl, Jon brings them up after Bran reveals himself to be the Night King's target. They're all perfectly reasonable points to bring up the fact that the crypts probably are the safest place to be. There's literally nowhere else for people to go if they're not soldiers. They can't send thousands of children and old people out into the North's countryside during the height of winter with an army of undead zombies on the loose, and they can't have them sat in the courtyard waiting for death. The crypts literally are the safest place to be, even if they're not necessarily a safe place to be. It's similar to what we're told to do when a house is on fire: the floor isn't necessarily a safe place to be, but it is the safest position under the circumstances.

And I'm not sure heavy foreshadowing will automatically diminish the impact of any dead Starks rising from their graves, should that happen. Think back to season 6. We're literally shown the destruction of the Sept of Baelor in 'Blood of My Blood' during Bran's visions after they escape the Three-Eyed-Raven's cave, four episodes before it actually happens. In 'No One', two episodes later, Cersei asks Qyburn about a "rumour" and he confirms that there is "more, much more". Hell, Johnathan Pryce (who played the High Sparrow) really let the cat out of the bag in an interview where he confirmed that "things don't end well" for his character. Piece all of that information together and you could have worked out before 'The Winds of Winter' that Cersei was going to blow the sept up to fuck. Knowing all of that beforehand still didn't stop that sequence being one of the best the show has ever produced. It's about the delivery, not about what comes beforehand. If a little Rickon Stark rises from his grave and chases Arya through the halls of Winterfell that's going to be frightening and emotional for a number of reasons, despite how much we've pieced together from this week's episode.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I do see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's completely unnatural for the characters to be mentioning the crypts in this context. Whenever the crypts are mentioned they're at least brought up organically. Gendry mentions the crypts to Arya because he hasn't seen what she's capable of, Gilly and Davos mention the crypts to a little girl, Jon brings them up after Bran reveals himself to be the Night King's target. They're all perfectly reasonable points to bring up the fact that the crypts probably are the safest place to be. There's literally nowhere else for people to go if they're not soldiers. They can't send thousands of children and old people out into the North's countryside during the height of winter with an army of undead zombies on the loose, and they can't have them sat in the courtyard waiting for death. The crypts literally are the safest place to be, even if they're not necessarily a safe place to be. It's similar to what we're told to do when a house is on fire: the floor isn't necessarily a safe place to be, but it is the safest position under the circumstances.

And I'm not sure heavy foreshadowing will automatically diminish the impact of any dead Starks rising from their graves, should that happen. Think back to season 6. We're literally shown the destruction of the Sept of Baelor in 'Blood of My Blood' during Bran's visions after they escape the Three-Eyed-Raven's cave, four episodes before it actually happens. In 'No One', two episodes later, Cersei asks Qyburn about a "rumour" and he confirms that there is "more, much more". Hell, Johnathan Pryce (who played the High Sparrow) really let the cat out of the bag in an interview where he confirmed that "things don't end well" for his character. Piece all of that information together and you could have worked out before 'The Winds of Winter' that Cersei was going to blow the sept up to fuck. Knowing all of that beforehand still didn't stop that sequence being one of the best the show has ever produced. It's about the delivery, not about what comes beforehand. If a little Rickon Stark rises from his grave and chases Arya through the halls of Winterfell that's going to be frightening and emotional for a number of reasons, despite how much we've pieced together from this week's episode.

I understand what you are saying and do agree the crypts are mentioned organically; it is just the quantity and obviousness of the mentions that are problematic for me. As I said before, even if it is a red herring, I personally feel it was oversold and, in that overselling, some of the enjoyment is taken away. I want to work a bit for my theories for what is going to happen next and I just do not feel they are giving viewers that opportunity. I also think the slide into this sort of “payoff setup” scheme has been happening for some time in the show, it’s just become too prevalent in these last two episodes for me.

And our difference of opinion is just down to “excessive” foreshadowing having different impacts on our enjoyment of a story.

For you, it seems satisfaction is mostly down to the quality of realisation (with what came before it being important but not pivotal to your experience), which in of itself is very difficult to get right. I know a few that feel the same, including my missus, and they actually don’t like some of the movies I love because they feel the final resolution of story elements were poor, even if they were “expertly” setup.

Whilst for me the quality of the setup and foundational elements before it are key. That means excessive foreshadowing (my definition again being ‘spelling things out so the audience doesn’t have to do too much work putting things together’) impacts my enjoyment more than it does yours, as I value not being able to fully work out all potential outcomes beforehand (e.g., the ever rarer experience of being surprised). That experience so important to me that I am willing to forgive shortcomings in the resolution.

Nothing wrong with that difference. If anything, I do sometimes wish I could look past that sort of relatively obvious story development as a lot of other shows and books would be much more enjoyable for me because the final realisation of “bludgeoned” story elements are actually very high quality and would otherwise be very satisfying.

By the way, I agree they didn’t have much choice but to put the meek in the crypt, but I just don’t feel that has a bearing on how the writers/show runners portray the action and potential consequence in the story (en masse, in this case, in my opinion in an attempt to try to manufacture a bigger reaction to the outcome later).

In many ways, David Benioff and DB Weiss backed themselves in to the excessive foreshadowing corner with the decisions made about pacing and splitting the final arch in to two seasons the way it was, so perhaps it was unavoidable.

FWIW, the impact from the destruction of the great sept was diminished a bit for me by the setup. I even got the hair dryer from the missus for saying it was about to happen, which has seen me keep my thoughts about future potential plot developments to myself moving forward. ;-)

 

[7evens]

I understand what you are saying and do agree the crypts are mentioned organically; it is just the quantity and obviousness of the mentions that are problematic for me. As I said before, even if it is a red herring, I personally feel it was oversold and, in that overselling, some of the enjoyment is taken away. I want to work a bit for my theories for what is going to happen next and I just do not feel they are giving viewers that opportunity. I also think the slide into this sort of “payoff setup” scheme has been happening for some time in the show, it’s just become too prevalent in these last two episodes for me.

And our difference of opinion is just down to “excessive” foreshadowing having different impacts on our enjoyment of a story.

For you, it seems satisfaction is mostly down to the quality of realisation (with what came before it being important but not pivotal to your experience), which in of itself is very difficult to get right. I know a few that feel the same, including my missus, and they actually don’t like some of the movies I love because they feel the final resolution of story elements were poor, even if they were “expertly” setup.

Whilst for me the quality of the setup and foundational elements before it are key. That means excessive foreshadowing (my definition again being ‘spelling things out so the audience doesn’t have to do too much work putting things together’) impacts my enjoyment more than it does yours, as I value not being able to fully work out all potential outcomes beforehand (e.g., the ever rarer experience of being surprised). That experience so important to me that I am willing to forgive shortcomings in the resolution.

Nothing wrong with that difference. If anything, I do sometimes wish I could look past that sort of relatively obvious story development as a lot of other shows and books would be much more enjoyable for me because the final realisation of “bludgeoned” story elements are actually very high quality and would otherwise be very satisfying.

By the way, I agree they didn’t have much choice but to put the meek in the crypt, but I just don’t feel that has a bearing on how the writers/show runners portray the action and potential consequence in the story (en masse, in this case, in my opinion in an attempt to try to manufacture a bigger reaction to the outcome later).

In many ways, David Benioff and DB Weiss backed themselves in to the excessive foreshadowing corner with the decisions made about pacing and splitting the final arch in to two seasons the way it was, so perhaps it was unavoidable.

FWIW, the impact from the destruction of the great sept was diminished a bit for me by the setup. I even got the hair dryer from the missus for saying it was about to happen, which has seen me keep my thoughts about future potential plot developments to myself moving forward. ;-)

All completely fair enough.

I think I even agree with you that they've laid it on a little thick with the mentions of the crypts being the safest place in the castle, but that's totally fine by me. Not only for the reasons stated above, but because it's not beyond the show to make such strong references to a particular set or location only for it to be a major red herring. It's all part of the fun and it's actually something they've done before. In season 5 we sat and waited with Brienne as she watched that empty window in the Winterfell tower, hoping to see Sansa's candle, only for them to finally reunite in the forest outside the castle at the start of the next season.

Maybe the dead don't rise next week after all. I've made my peace with seeing a little wight Rickon Stark chasing Arya around the castle, and I've made my peace with seeing a headless skeleton rise from Ned Stark's grave to attack Sansa, and I've made my peace with seeing neither of those things happen. My guess is that the Night King won't be at Winterfell next week anyhow, and that he'll be leading an attack on the southern kingdoms (that way he can bring "an endless night" to the world without being targeted if he goes after Bran), so mass resurrections may be off the table anyway, unless the White Walkers fancy doing the job themselves.

And, frankly, the audience being smarter than a show isn't always a problem either. Sometimes I like my guesses and theories to be correct, sometimes I like the writers to head to places I expect them to, sometimes I like my characters to make dumb mistakes. It was obvious to us all that Robb Stark heading back to the Twins to make peace with Walder Frey was a stupid idea, and it was obvious to us all that it was a stupid idea for Oberyn to dance around Ser Gregor instead of just fucking killing him, but because of how the Red Wedding and Oberyn's deaths went down they're now legendary moments in the series.

Foreshadowing is foreshadowing is foreshadowing, no matter how much time it has to prepare you for the inevitable, essentially.

 

[Plain Speaking]

It would be highly amusing and would really fuck over the living side if he went to King's Landing, the Lannisters/Golden Company don't have any dragonglass and would get butchered and the lot at Winterfell would have their plans scuppered with the Night King out of range and don't have the numbers to beat the army of the dead. They could probably beat them in that scenario by unleashing both remaining dragons, but unless they know for certain that the Night King is gone, they won't do that.

What about Bran's prediction "he will come for me"? Bran seems to be able to read the future.

(Maybe there's time for the night king to fly to attack Kings Landing then come back for Bran?)

I assumed the end of series final Battle would be at Kings Landing between Cersei/Golden company and the mostly human survivors from the first Battle.

It would really surprise me if the undead won the Winterfell battle but it is GoT, you never know?

I suppose it depends on whether the story is fundementally about different human factions struggling to rule the iron throne or humans struggling just to survive?