Gas & Electricity

[west didsblue]

All ver6 well opening pits but who the fuck is going to work there? Last time I looked Thatcher killed off most of the miners and last time I looked we weren’t letting anyone in the country unless it’s in a fucking dinghy.

I assumed he was joking. Nobody can be that daft.

 

[west didsblue]

We turn a blind eye to crisis all the time, we turned a blind eye to the Balkans in the 90s until very late in the day, there's no reason why this should be any different. Ukraine only became a country as part of the Soviet Union in the 1920s, prior to that it had existed as a region in various empires. There's no reason why we should suffer for Ukrainian self determination any more than we should suffer for the Kurds in their quest for nationhood, or the Palestinians or any number of other groups we don't give a fuck about.

NATO and the nuclear deterrent will keep Putin away from anything we actually care about, Russia is not an existential threat to us. The West accepts the concept of spheres of influence when it comes to us, we're being hypocritical not accepting it when it comes to Russia and China.

Shocking post.
Trying to equate the direct invasion of one sovereign state by another with the fog of various internecine conflicts where there is no simple solution is a bit pathetic. We actually did effectively turn a blind in Ukraine for 8 years and did little more than tut tutted when Russia launched a biological attack in England and shot down an international airliner over Ukraine. The full scale invasion of Ukraine finally made the western world wake up to the dangers of a megalomaniac in Moscow and rightly so. The fact that much of the rest of the world are not taking the same stance due to their own self interest is irrelevant. Self interest for us is not having a country that will do literally anything to destabilise us being allowed to do what they want, and supporting the country that will ultimately defeat them.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Shocking post.
Trying to equate the direct invasion of one sovereign state by another with the fog of various internecine conflicts where there is no simple solution is a bit pathetic. We actually did effectively turn a blind in Ukraine for 8 years and did little more than tut tutted when Russia launched a biological attack in England and shot down an international airliner over Ukraine. The full scale invasion of Ukraine finally made the western world wake up to the dangers of a megalomaniac in Moscow and rightly so. The fact that much of the rest of the world are not taking the same stance due to their own self interest is irrelevant. Self interest for us is not having a country that will do literally anything to destabilise us being allowed to do what they want, and supporting the country that will ultimately defeat them.

I'm glad it shocks you.

Self determination is what powerful countries/forces grant to less powerful groups when it serves their purpose, or the powerful have no claim to it, or when empires fall apart, or when the group agree to subservience, or is in the middle of nowhere, or where they call home has nothing powerful countries want, or isn't already taken by a group with powerful friends.

Go Google the list of groups agitating for self determination worldwide, it's a very, very, very long list, where are we for them?

I'm replying out of courtesy, posts with....

"megalomaniac in Moscow"

Or

"Self interest for us is not having a country that will do literally anything to destabilise us"

Are simply not serious.

To quote the great German Chancellor Otto Von Bismark...

the Balkans were “not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier”

Yet the Balkans dragged us in to the First World War.

What is happening in Ukraine is terrible, but it's not our war, it's not worth a single British OAP dying of hypothermia.

 

[RobMCFC]

I'm glad it shocks you.

Self determination is what powerful countries/forces grant to less powerful groups when it serves their purpose, or the powerful have no claim to it, or when empires fall apart, or when the group agree to subservience, or is in the middle of nowhere, or where they call home has nothing powerful countries want, or isn't already taken by a group with powerful friends.

Go Google the list of groups agitating for self determination worldwide, it's a very, very, very long list, where are we for them?

I'm replying out of courtesy, posts with....

"megalomaniac in Moscow"

Or

"Self interest for us is not having a country that will do literally anything to destabilise us"

Are simply not serious.

To quote the great German Chancellor Otto Von Bismark...

the Balkans were “not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier”

Yet the Balkans dragged us in to the First World War.

What is happening in Ukraine is terrible, but it's not our war, it's not worth a single British OAP dying of hypothermia.

If I understand your reasoning, you are saying that any country should not get involved in a conflict unless there is a direct threat to that country's own territory?

 

[west didsblue]

I'm glad it shocks you.

Self determination is what powerful countries/forces grant to less powerful groups when it serves their purpose, or the powerful have no claim to it, or when empires fall apart, or when the group agree to subservience, or is in the middle of nowhere, or where they call home has nothing powerful countries want, or isn't already taken by a group with powerful friends.

Go Google the list of groups agitating for self determination worldwide, it's a very, very, very long list, where are we for them?

I'm replying out of courtesy, posts with....

"megalomaniac in Moscow"

Or

"Self interest for us is not having a country that will do literally anything to destabilise us"

Are simply not serious.

To quote the great German Chancellor Otto Von Bismark...

the Balkans were “not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier”

Yet the Balkans dragged us in to the First World War.

What is happening in Ukraine is terrible, but it's not our war, it's not worth a single British OAP dying of hypothermia.

Probably not the right thread for discussing the merits and demerits of the west's support for Ukraine but I disagree with everything you have said.
You think it's not our war? Fair enough but if Ukraine was not supported by the West a puppet government would already be in place in Kyiv, and Russia would be looking at the next countries to invade - most likely Georgia, Moldova and Finland. How do I know? Because Putin has said it.
At what point should we take an interest? - when they've reached the English channel?

Our support for the war in Ukraine won't be the reason why OAPs will die of hypothermia this winter - that will be down to our government not putting in place measures to help them with the cost of living crisis.

 

[The perfect fumble]

If I understand your reasoning, you are saying that any country should not get involved in a conflict unless there is a direct threat to that country's own territory?

In an interconnected world it is not as cut and dried as that and we are obliged by our membership of NATO to treat an attack on one as an attack on all, notwithstanding all that, in the absence of a threat to this country we should not be involved.

 

[M18CTID]

I'm glad it shocks you.

Self determination is what powerful countries/forces grant to less powerful groups when it serves their purpose, or the powerful have no claim to it, or when empires fall apart, or when the group agree to subservience, or is in the middle of nowhere, or where they call home has nothing powerful countries want, or isn't already taken by a group with powerful friends.

Go Google the list of groups agitating for self determination worldwide, it's a very, very, very long list, where are we for them?

I'm replying out of courtesy, posts with....

"megalomaniac in Moscow"

Or

"Self interest for us is not having a country that will do literally anything to destabilise us"

Are simply not serious.

To quote the great German Chancellor Otto Von Bismark...

the Balkans were “not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier”

Yet the Balkans dragged us in to the First World War.

What is happening in Ukraine is terrible, but it's not our war, it's not worth a single British OAP dying of hypothermia.

Maybe we shouldn't have gotten involved in 1939 then. After all, when Hitler invaded Poland I suppose it could be argued that it wasn't our war.

 

[west didsblue]

In an interconnected world it is not as cut and dried as that and we are obliged by our membership of NATO to treat an attack on one as an attack on all, notwithstanding all that, in the absence of a threat to this country we should not be involved.

We were signatories of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances when Ukraine was guaranteed security in return for handing its nuclear weapons to Russia. Are we supposed to ignore that?

 

[The perfect fumble]

Probably not the right thread for discussing the merits and demerits of the west's support for Ukraine but I disagree with everything you have said.
You think it's not our war? Fair enough but if Ukraine was not supported by the West a puppet government would already be in place in Kyiv, and Russia would be looking at the next countries to invade - most likely Georgia, Moldova and Finland. How do I know? Because Putin has said it.
At what point should we take an interest? - when they've reached the English channel?

Yes, a puppet government would be in Kyiv, just as they have in Minsk. The former Soviet Republics are on their own, we couldn't support them even if we wanted to and we don't want to.

As For Finland, that's hot air bullshit out of Moscow, if Finlandisation isn't cutting it any more, NATO membership will.

As for...

"At what point should we take an interest? - when they've reached the English channel?"

 

[Blue Maverick]

Yes, a puppet government would be in Kyiv, just as they have in Minsk. The former Soviet Republics are on their own, we couldn't support them even if we wanted to and we don't want to.

As For Finland, that's hot air bullshit out of Moscow, if Finlandisation isn't cutting it any more, NATO membership will.

As for...

"At what point should we take an interest? - when they've reached the English channel?"

I can’t believe you think this way, once he’d done with Ukraine he would’ve moved onto smaller nations that aren’t in NATO, trying to re establish USSR, that what he wants. If the West appeared weak this would then allow China to take Taiwan, much of this then snowballs as these dictatorships try to divide up the world and push against democracies. At what point do we say enough as countries are effectively enslaved. I’m glad you were t around in 1914/39 you’d have been waving the white flag welcoming ze Germans goosestepping down the Mall whilst murdering people in plain sight.