General Election - December 12th, 2019

[George Hannah]

Should have asked him about systemic change and the dismantling of the capitalist state.....

Just McDonnell's personal opinion lol

 

[Eds]

I laughed my head off when I read this.

At the local elections Cheadle got its first ever Labour councillor by one vote. Luckily I persuaded my mum to walk round to the polling station before it shut to cast her vote and it was the winning vote. The MP is a Tory, Mary Robinson, who I have had dealings with and found to be courteous, respectful and hard working, a decent MP who I actually respect despite her being a Tory. They are obviously concerned there is a danger she may lose her seat as Labour have grown enormously in the area and whilst Cheadle is a decent area with a lot of wealth there are pockets of extreme deprivation on its council estates. For some reason people are always surprised to learn Cheadle has council estates as it seen as a well to do area. This is a sign that the Tories are very worried as apart from a couple of Lib Dems the constituency has been solidly Tory for years. The Cheadle Blues even hold their meetings in the Conservative Club, I have burnt loads of pairs of shoes since we moved there.

Seat was held by Lib Dem’s for about 15 years until Robinson won it back in 2015 and then held on two years later. Whilst the labour vote has increased since 2001 it still is less than 20% of the total number of votes cast. If the Torres do lose the seat at the next election it will be to those Lb Dems who don’t believe in democracy rather than Labour

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Should have asked him about systemic change and the dismantling of the capitalist state.

Seems the fucking irony of him criticizing a hard Brexit "because of the tremendous damage to our economy" - was entirely lost on people.

There could be no more tremendous damage than having that lunatic setting the policies. He couldn't even manage the GLC's finances.

He would wreak catastrophic damage on our economy. He is totally clueless and very unpleasant to boot. Shows what a sad state of affairs our political system is in currently when the best the opposition has to offer is him Corbyn, Abbott, Starmer, and the odious Thornberry. They should be romping away with the current mess the Tories are in.

 

[Rascal]

The obvious problem for many of the electorate is since corbyn has become leader, Labour have moved even more to the left and the same with conservatives moving further right with Johnson.

.

Labour have returned to its old traditional values, the values that brought us the greatest PM of the 20th Century, Clement Atlee.

They have moved to the left of Blair who many on the left never saw as being of the left as he was a neo-liberal warmonger.

 

[Rascal]

I'm guessing that Rudd wanted to go out in a blaze of glory rather than possibly lose her seat in ignominy at the next GE. Bercow has disgraced the position of speaker ever since he became speaker. Should have gone long ago.

Bercow has been the best speaker since Betty Boothroyd, because he has enabled the legislature to hold the executive to account. Anybody who advocates for the power of the executive at the detriment of the legislature is in danger of leading us into abuse of power by said executive.

 

[gandalfthebrave]

I still think the French example is the closest thing we have to look at, even if it isn’t an apples to apples comparison as I noted.

I agree with a lot of your post but surely you’re not being serious about the swathes of oligarchs? A lot of them buy property here but aren’t resident or domiciled here for tax purposes anyway. There’s more to shifting money to the UK and buying property here - oligarchs aren’t subject to lose their vast fortunes at Putin’s whim if it’s beyond his reach. Same goes for people from other countries trying to offshore their fortune. London is allegedly one of the money laundering capitals of the world (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....sh-unexplained-wealth-orders-money-laundering) I’d say that’s more of a consideration than our tax rates (for now, anyway.)

Just because people live and work in the UK doesn’t mean they pay tax here. Your example of Richard Branson is spot on, add in people like Phillip Green and so on. I read an article a few years ago about flights outside UK air space just cruising around so the passengers could claim to have been in the UK less than 90 days or w/e it is for them not to be subject to tax here. It might actually have been in Phillip Green’s book but I can’t remember off the top of my head.

This kind of horseplay increases as the tax rate increases. The more you try to take from people, the increasing lengths they’ll go to in order to avoid paying it.

Which brings me onto optimal taxation. I didn’t mention Laffer because I think we should conduct our own study and draw our own conclusions. If it’s proven that punitive tax rates bring in the most money then that’s fine. But I think the optimal figure probably isn’t 50% or more.

I’m all for a fairer, richer society but I don’t think our current tax system allows for that. I am of the belief the personal allowance should probably be higher, but the tax rate flat. Those earning the most will still pay more.

Forgot to add to this that if one uniform tax rate was introduced I’d also bring in absolutely draconian penalties for tax evaders.

None of the wishy wash open to interpretation guff we have now. But absolutely draconian jail terms for anyone knowingly flouting tax laws. I think that’s the only way it’s going to be dealt with.

Making tax fairer is one thing, but robustly enforcing it is also imperative. We can do both, I just don’t think there’s actually any political appetite there for it.

 

[Rascal]

My guess is it's around where it is now, I.e. 45%. There's lots of things which may have effected this of course, but nevertheless it is true to say that receipts from the additional higher rate band decreases when the rate was changed from 45% to 50%. And then increases again when the rate was reduced back to 45% again.

I'm sure some of that may have been people taking bonuses early and other such avoidance measures, but the point stands, because this is all about minimising avoidance.

There's also an emotional angle to it. First, personally I have a moral problem with the idea of taking more than half of someone's earning off them. Maybe that's just me. But second, if the base rate was say 33% and the top rate 60, I imagine (perhaps bizarrely) people would find the 60% more palatable.

Currently, someone on £120,000 a year, pays £39,496 in income tax. Someone on £20,000 pays £1,498.

That's 26 times more, for 6x the earnings. And that's before the lower paid person gets money back in benefits. Ditto someone on £200k already pays about 25x more than someone on £30k.

Corbyn's tax pledges will make the ratio much higher, which many will find unacceptable. I have no doubt the very rich will do everything they can to avoid paying it.

Both you and Gandalf make valid points. The iniquities of the tax system in my opinion have arose as much from the lowering of tax rates on the bottom domicile than they have at the top. They have made it inequitable and that increases pressures on the richest to pay more as the line "all in it together" appears unjust.

Its all very well being a party that believes in lower taxes, but that party looks hypocritical when it raises the regressive tax, VAT,which affects those at the bottom more.

 

[Rascal]

Seat was held by Lib Dem’s for about 15 years until Robinson won it back in 2015 and then held on two years later. Whilst the labour vote has increased since 2001 it still is less than 20% of the total number of votes cast. If the Torres do lose the seat at the next election it will be to those Lb Dems who don’t believe in democracy rather than Labour

I know, I live in Cheadle and Mark Hunter was an absolute joke of a man and an MP. They don't come near my house anymore and Hunter never even bothered to reply to my correspondence with him.

How does somebody who does not believe in democracy get elected in a democratic vote.

Run that past me again.

 

[Rascal]

Should have asked him about systemic change and the dismantling of the capitalist state.

Seems the fucking irony of him criticizing a hard Brexit "because of the tremendous damage to our economy" - was entirely lost on people.

There could be no more tremendous damage than having that lunatic setting the policies. He couldn't even manage the GLC's finances.

Hey Chippy my old chum, you forgot the Marxist reference.

I am dissapointed.

 

[jay_mcfc]

Hahaha you've gotta love YouGov. Every single time the government are in a state of despair they throw out ridiculous poll results that go against all the others. Their latest shows the Cons 14% up on Labour! Meanwhile others hover around 3-5% in the main whilst one that asks if there's a GE after a Brexit extension which puts Labour ahead!