General Election June 8th

[gordondaviesmoustache]

But they're not though. You and everybody else have fell into the logical trap that politics places on people.

Labour are not going to "wreck the economy".

The Tories aren't going to "starve the poor".

This is PR nonsense that has no bearing on reality. It presumes that neither party has any rational actors in it and instead are a caricature of themselves. A vastly over simplified description able to be shortened into a useful soundbite.

I voted Labour because I believe in more of Labour policies than Tory and as a member, I want us to have a strong opposition for the next leader.

But if the Tories get in then that's fine. They are a bunch of generally rational people who want to do what they think is best for the country. We're not going to be back to the days of workhouse and Oliver Twist.

The point is that these are stereotypes about political parties reinforced by the gutter press and they never come true. Labour never sinks the economy. The Tories never kill off the poor. It's a complete myth akin to transfer hype where a new player is never as good or bad as people expected.

These stereotypes are part of the irrationality of politics and they're both unhelpful and really quite irritating. The end is never nigh. People lie to you in order to create emotion and make you do what they want.

I didn't say they are going to "wreck the economy". As ever, my choice of words was careful and particular. I said in all likelihood they would bring economic turmoil upon this country. It's a very different thing and discernibly less serious.

I don't believe that people on the hard left act responsibly with tax payers money, essentially because they act too much with their hearts and not enough with their heads. Their Weltanschauung does not lend itself to fiscal prudence, but that doesn't mean I believe a Labour government would lead to economic Armageddon. This country is too economically advanced and stable for that to be a likely outcome.

I think your post would have been more purposefully deployed at an alternative target.

 

[mcfc1632]

Of course there is

I do not understand how so many people cannot get their heads around that by saying we will not leave without a deal - like Labour do - then you immediately give all the power to the EU team and effectively guarantee the worst deal is all that will be on offer - meaning that we essentially do not leave.

Anyway - that is something for the Brexit thread

 

[Clevers]

Ordinarily, I'm a hugely positive person, and I've engaged with politics since before I could vote, but it was with a heavy heart that I just cast my vote for the Lib Dems.

This is partly because of the political system which we operate in this country means my vote, in a constituency where 75% of the vote at the last election was for Labour, was a wasted one. However, my disposition is mainly because of the state of British politics today. The standard of politician, compared to a generation ago, on all sides, is truly shocking. I put this principally down to the proliferation of career politicians in the last generation or so.

Even though I'm slightly right of centre on certain issues, due to their lack of social liberalism I don't think I could ever vote Tory, but I did have a wobble around a week ago and have been vacillating between Labour and the Lib Dems in the last few days, but in the final analysis I couldn't bring myself to vote for a party who I believe would, in all likelihood, bring economic turmoil upon this country, even though I agree with some of their more significant policies, such as on renationalisation of certain industries.

I believe that as well as being a threat to our future prosperity, Brexit also represents a huge opportunity, but one I fear that our political classes are pitifully ill-equipped to tackle. I expect the outcome will be between 80 to 100 seat majority for the Tories (down from my predictions of a fortnight ago) and we'll be left with a dishonest, spineless **** to map out this country's progress for the next half a century or so, assuming she clings on - and if she doesn't, fuck knows who or what will replace her, another manifest shortcoming in our political system.

All very depressing.

This sums up my feelings exactly.

In the past you would look at the front benches of the major parties and see a core of potential leaders or PMs, not any more. The best we can come up with are Corbyn and May.

Too many MPS these day go from university to political research to Parliament with what I consider to be little experience of the real world.

 

[Chris in London]

No the worst deal would be no deal where we abide by WTO rules.

I've changed my mind on this over the last few months as I've read more and more. Ensuring the City has tariff free access to the EU markets should be priority number 1. No matter what that costs, we have to safeguard this.

People are talking about game theory and nationalist pride about "getting one over on the EU", but this is irrelevant. If we lose the City we're immensely fucked as a major trading nation. Walking away with no deal would be an almost treasonous act that will sink our economy 100 times more than nationalizing some industries

In the 1980s and early 90s the then government systematically and deliberately moved Britain away from being a country whose economic strength depended principally on manufacturing to one which largely depended on financial services. London now provides the nation with 28% of its national income (the next highest City is Manchester which provides about 3%). A very significant proportion of alondon's income derives from the City of London providing financial services within the EU. There is a debate to be had about whether the move from a manufacturing to a service based economy was borne of economic necessity (given the globalisation that has since taken place - its now cheaper to buy steel in China and ship it over than it is to make it in Middlesbrough and that state of affairs was predicted by many economists in the 80s)) or whether it was politically driven - a systematic attempt to dehorn the heavy-industry unions that brought down the (then) last conservative government. What is undoubtedly true is that we are now predominantly a service based economy not a manufacturing economy.

What is undoubtedly clear is that, like it or lump it, a threat to the economic health of the City is a significant threat to the financial stability of the nation. And the option of withdrawing from the EU and resorting to nothing but WTO rules (which do not cover the provision of services) is in economic terms is a bit like the option of holding a shotgun against the foot before pulling the trigger.

I have watched many - justifiably in my view - criticise Labour's spending promises this election, because although provisionally costed in the manifesto, Labour's costings take no account (for instance) of the tax avoidance measures that every company will take if Labour wins today and imposes higher Corporation Tax rates. However the justified criticism of Labour's magic money tree uttered by eg Theresa May seems ironic to say the least given her threat to take an axe to the actual money tree that is the City of London, which is exactly what would happen if we pull out of the EU and revert to nothing but WTO rules.

I suppose irony is only one word for it. There are others.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

This sums up my feelings exactly.

In the past you would look at the front benches of the major parties and see a core of potential leaders or PMs, not any more. The best we can come up with are Corbyn and May.

Too many MPS these day go from university to political research to Parliament with what I consider to be little experience of the real world.

Politicians are a bunch of anodyne wankers, in the main.

 

[stonerblue]

But they're not though. You and everybody else have fell into the logical trap that politics places on people.

Labour are not going to "wreck the economy".

The Tories aren't going to "starve the poor".

This is PR nonsense that has no bearing on reality. It presumes that neither party has any rational actors in it and instead are a caricature of themselves. A vastly over simplified description able to be shortened into a useful soundbite.

I voted Labour because I believe in more of Labour policies than Tory and as a member, I want us to have a strong opposition for the next leader.

But if the Tories get in then that's fine. They are a bunch of generally rational people who want to do what they think is best for the country. We're not going to be back to the days of workhouse and Oliver Twist.

The point is that these are stereotypes about political parties reinforced by the gutter press and they never come true. Labour never sinks the economy. The Tories never kill off the poor. It's a complete myth akin to transfer hype where a new player is never as good or bad as people expected.

These stereotypes are part of the irrationality of politics and they're both unhelpful and really quite irritating. The end is never nigh. People lie to you in order to create emotion and make you do what they want.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...n-suicides-health-professionals-a6712651.html

 

[mcfc1632]

Scrap HS2 for starters

Good call - but the point I was making was that it is clear that the Labour Education spokesman had not a clue about the detail of the Tuition fees policy and the associated cost driving factors - so people are clearly right to be concerned about the 'robustness' of this 'fully costed manifesto'

 

[RandomJ]

Well I've done my part. Not holding my breath about the result though.

 

[Clevers]

Er...four thousand deaths of people having their benefits stopped after being declared fit to work is what could be described as a "kill off" don't you think?

Over what period of time. How may people died whose benefits weren't stopped?

 

[BlueHammer85]

Get bored of the same old cliches EVERY single election 'they're all the same' 'they're clueless' bla bla

we have at last a genuine socialist left wing leader representing Labour, a man who is clearly passionate about helping the working class, yes he has hes flaws like every single human being againts a right wing leader for the Tories who has been a MP for over 20 years and home secretary last 7 years - Tim Farron, Nicola Sturgeon and Paul Nuttals all have totally different backgrounds representing totally different parties yet still get lumped in with 'there all the same' , it's bullsh*t.