George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

[bert38]

Another clip here showing the scuffle



People are saying defund the police, I say give them more funds are proper training. A basic knowledge of grappling or jiu jitsu and they could of easily controlled this guy.

Fine in theory but in the UK we are taught a form of basic jiu jitsu and we receive annual training in self defence and unarmed defence tactics but in 25 years I’ve never used it despite dealing with dozens of violent non compliant offenders-many are in drink or under the influence of drugs and you are wearing loads of gear, heavy stab vest, utility belt-it often ends up in an almighty struggle until you can get a handcuff on-see the hackney video. Restraining someone when they really don’t want to be is almost always not a pretty sight. The difference here is obviously less guns, that said knives are much more prevalent. But at 52 I leave in Oct. Its a job that has become increasingly hard-both sides of the Atlantic.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

By my book it's simple, you shoot a man running away without a deadly weapon it's murder.

Your book might be right in your own mind. The question is “Is MCFC1993’s book the law in Georgia?”

The person is running away but firing a taser. If the policeman is hit by the taser, he loses control of the situation, and thus his weapon. THAT is the difference.

Now, the question will be whether he had ANY REASONABLE risk of losing control of his weapon?

Personally, I think it was RASH to shoot him. I don’t think he SHOULD have felt his life was in any jeopardy, given the totality of the situation, including the fact that he had a partner with him. I DO think he was operating at a very high level of Adrenalin and, even after two police officers struggled to contain the man (because they couldn’t use a chokehold to subdue him!) he was still a threat BECAUSE HE STOLE A WEAPON FROM AN OFFICER.

I have no idea why he reacted the way he did...fight, steal an officer’s weapon, run...but he paid a high price for what was, until that point, a DUI (unless there was much worse going on, to include other warrants, drugs, weapons, etc...

It’s poor timing, to be sure, but I simply cannot understand why people react to the police the way they do. Comply, listen to commands, sort it out in court with an attorney. Fighting with the police is a losing strategy for a long, full life.

(PS. there are two taser charges. He fired one and still had one left)

 

[ChicagoBlue]

America is fucked.
You will never sort out institutional racism or heavy handed policing while guns are the norm in society.

You need to unarm society and then the police.

It’s never going to happen.

I would simply say that America has always had guns. Cops have always had guns. The problem, or change, is that more people in the streets have guns and people are less respectful of the police. That disrespect creates a greater tension and need for heavier handed policing, and the cycle continues. I had dinner with a friend whose cousins is a cop and whose brother is a DEA Agent. He said the things being screamed in their faces in these “peaceful protests” is the kind of thing that, in any other circumstances, would get you a slap and fired in the spot in any workplace.

The level of abuse aimed at police officers simply doing their jobs is unbelievable. Now, do I agree that George Floyd was killed by the police officer in question? Absolutely. Send him down for life, no problem. However, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. George Floyd didn’t deserve to die for it, but he was NOT a victim until he stopped breathing. Until then, he was a criminal who was going to jail...a place to which he obviously didn’t want to return!

Policing in America is hard. Brutal policing should definitely be dealt with severely. However, the level of public agitation of the police is at a level that is also vastly different than in the UK. As some of you know, I’m a gun owner, government trained, and I have a distinctly different respect for law enforcement than I had. I’ve seen videos where police have been murdered by trying to de-escalate, give the benefit of the doubt, and one guy who had just returned to service after a long inquiry into a good shooting, during which he was publicly castigated. He waited, and waited and waited, trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, even after multiple commands to comply and make the situation safer...shot dead, in cold blood, and the guy just drove off.

I’ve also seen multiple videos of the same situation and how quickly a simple change can turn deadly. Guy pulled over, told to stay in his vehicle. Guy gets out of his pick up truck, which has a rifle mounted in the back window (perfectly legal!). Cop tells him to get back in his truck. Guy approaches cop, cop pulls weapon. Guy gets louder, starts walking back to his truck shouting I’ll get my paperwork (Drivers license and car registration). Cop loses track of the guys hands. Shouts commands to show him his hands, while guy shouts that he’s getting his papers.

At this point, cop is looking at guys back, can’t see his hands (overshirt flapping around in the wind) and man is approaching the open drivers side door. THE MAN HAS BEEN COMPLETELY NON-COMPLIANT TO EVERY SINGLE COMMAND AND IS DOING WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO. Meanwhile, cop has gun drawn, but is NOT in control of the interaction.

At this point, man quarter turns into his pick up cab, reaches in to his right, back still facing the officer, grabs something and swivels quickly to face the cop with his right arm extended: Gun or black leather wallet with DL and Reg???

Cop now playing you bet your life...

Never had control of the interaction. No reasonableness standard would allow him to shoot the guy, even though he is completely non-compliant, originally advanced on the Officer, then retreated with loss of eye contact on his hands, then reached into his vehicle for “something,” then pivoted at the officer with arm outstretched...is a bullet heading his way or is the driver presenting his wallet?

If the officer takes the position that he needs to wait and check to see EXACTLY what is in the man’s hand...and it is a gun being fired...he is dead already.

In short, based on the time it takes for the man to grab, turn and extend his arm, IF the man has grabbed a gun and is turning to shoot him, the officer needs to fire his own weapon BEFORE KNOWING WHAT IS IN HIS HAND!!!

We saw both situations play out and even during simulations, even when you KNOW at least one of the events is going to present a weapon, you are fucked!! You literally have to GUESS CORRECTLY, otherwise you are being accused of murder or signing your own death warrant!!!

So..

A) You wait and it is actually a license and registration.
B) You wait and you’re shot dead at close range.
C) You don’t wait and you shoot him before he gets his shot off on you. He dies, you live.
D) You don’t wait and you shoot him as he hands you a black wallet with papers and you’re prosecuted.

Only ONE of those is even remotely preferable outcome, while THREE OF THEM ARE NEGATIVE OUTCOMES....YOU HAVE A ONE IN FOUR (25%) CHANCE of a positive outcome from any such encounter, and in two of them someone gets shot, and even if it isn’t you, you can expect to be prosecuted, lose your life savings trying to save yourself from life in prison, and ruining your family life forever!

COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY...RELAX, RELAX, RELAX...

The officer hones in on YOUR VIBE. Tense, nervous, not following commands, twitchy, moving around, can’t see your hands, window not down, dark in your car, etc, etc, etc...

Stop, lower your window, turn in inside light, hands either out of the window or on top of the steering wheel, palms open, completely non-threatening stance...DO NOT LEAN OVER TO THE GLOVE BOX!

Help the cop and help yourself. Your being pulled because you’ve committed a crime, so don’t think that simply complying should beat the ticket. However, complying, DE-ESCALATING THE EVENT FOR THE OFFICER, and it will greatly help the outcome, and helps the officer be significantly more relaxed. He will appreciate that you have made it easy for him and the threat level drops to 1 out of 10. Lean over to the glove box for your paperwork before he has approached and asked for it and YOU have escalated the event to a 5 out of 10 before a word is said.

There are two sides to how any police interaction goes. Both sides have the ability to de-escalate and both sides SHOULD TRY TO DE-ESCALATE. Unfortunately, that means public compliance with officer commands until he feels safe and in control of the interaction. Do anything to escalate and th Officer starts to feel the threat and things can go bad from there, to include calls for back up, you being classed as a threat, and a strong possibility of removal and handcuffed until the police can be certain there is no further need to neutralize any perceived threat.

Again, one man’s experience and opinion. Like arseholes, we all have one and I’m sure you have your own on mine.

Lastly, during my first full up shooting simulation, I was asked how many shots I had fired when faced with a shooter. I said “3, no 4, because I remember shooting him while he was on the ground as he lifted his head while the gun was still in his hand.” Watched the replay...shot him SEVEN TIMES, 6 before he hit the ground and once on the ground!!! And, the question was asked just a few minutes after the shooting and a quick debrief of why I took the shot when I did, why I didn’t take an earlier shot, or wait, etc... As the adrenaline started to decrease, he casually asked “So, how many times did you shoot and how many times did you hit him?” I was dumbfounded when I watched the replay! I thought I had taken 3 “individual” shots, then 1 more while he was on the ground. Each shot had actually been a double tap, which was an automatic response which we had been trained to do, but it literally felt like one shot.

I tell this story only because until you have faced a gun, and shot to save your own life (even in a simulation), it really is almost impossible to imagine the tension, adrenaline rush, and how you would personally react. For most actual police officers, they go their whole careers and never fire their weapon in anger, so it isn’t a sensation with which they’re familiar, or necessarily an adrenaline shot they recognize and can easily counter. Just sayin’

 

[MCFC1993]

Your book might be right in your own mind. The question is “Is MCFC1993’s book the law in Georgia?”

The person is running away but firing a taser. If the policeman is hit by the taser, he loses control of the situation, and thus his weapon. THAT is the difference.

Now, the question will be whether he had ANY REASONABLE risk of losing control of his weapon?

Personally, I think it was RASH to shoot him. I don’t think he SHOULD have felt his life was in any jeopardy, given the totality of the situation, including the fact that he had a partner with him. I DO think he was operating at a very high level of Adrenalin and, even after two police officers struggled to contain the man (because they couldn’t use a chokehold to subdue him!) he was still a threat BECAUSE HE STOLE A WEAPON FROM AN OFFICER.

I have no idea why he reacted the way he did...fight, steal an officer’s weapon, run...but he paid a high price for what was, until that point, a DUI (unless there was much worse going on, to include other warrants, drugs, weapons, etc...

It’s poor timing, to be sure, but I simply cannot understand why people react to the police the way they do. Comply, listen to commands, sort it out in court with an attorney. Fighting with the police is a losing strategy for a long, full life.

(PS. there are two taser charges. He fired one and still had one left)

I suspect the law probably does cover the officers but that says more about the law in my opinion; which is very vague and can be construed to always protect the officer.

I personally think to kill a man in that position you have to be pretty fucked up.

In regards to your last bit, he may have struggled with police because of what happened to George Floyd, we don't know.

I also appreciate your post above where the cops are always prepared for the worst but this situation is different imo. They knew he had no lethal weapon, they could have done better.

Ultimately it's a debate that will probably swing back around to gun control which is just pointless as nobody as taken any steps to sort guns out.

 

[mrbelfry]

@ChicagoBlue you suggest part of the problem is a proliferation of guns. Can you please explain why you own a gun? Would you give up your gun to be part of a solution?

How does what you posted explain deaths such as Breonna Taylor? Or Fred Hampton?

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Fine in theory but in the UK we are taught a form of basic jiu jitsu and we receive annual training in self defence and unarmed defence tactics but in 25 years I’ve never used it despite dealing with dozens of violent non compliant offenders-many are in drink or under the influence of drugs and you are wearing loads of gear, heavy stab vest, utility belt-it often ends up in an almighty struggle until you can get a handcuff on-see the hackney video. Restraining someone when they really don’t want to be is almost always not a pretty sight. The difference here is obviously less guns, that said knives are much more prevalent. But at 52 I leave in Oct. Its a job that has become increasingly hard-both sides of the Atlantic.

I would be inclined to use the word 'impossible' here!

 

[ChicagoBlue]

@ChicagoBlue you suggest part of the problem is a proliferation of guns. Can you please explain why you own a gun?

I own 3 guns. One is the same caliber (.40) as my service weapon, which means I often have free bullets to shoot. I bought a second gun (9mm Glock) so that I could go to the range with my wife/son/daughter, have a gun that holds more than 13 bullets (service weapon), uses ubiquitous, cheaper ammo, and is easier to control and shoot than the .40. It is also my Concealed Carry of choice, especially in the car, for protection, both at home and on the road. The third is a personal Concealed Carry, which is only 7 rounds, slimline Glock, which is lightweight, easy to conceal and very easy to control and shoot. I can carry this under almost any clothing and can wear it when out most anywhere.

So, originally, it was service weapon mirroring for practice. Then, easier & cheaper gun to shoot with higher magazine capacity and a good CCW, esp for travel. Then, same 9mm ammo, but smaller, considerably more concealable weapon for CCW.

Would you give up your gun to be part of a solution?

What’s the solution? I’m happy to register the weapons (most people are not), I am happy to undergo training for the weapons (most people are not), and I’m happy to store the weapons safely (many people do not). I’m not sure what solution I am the problem to.

You often hear the adage over here that “I’m a good guy with a gun. Take mine and only the bad guys will have them!”

How does what you posted explain deaths such as Breonna Taylor?

All the facts are not in on this case. If it was a good warrant, the police did announce, and the police returned fire, then this is unfortunate. I agree that there should not be dead of night, knock and knockdown warrants of plain clothed officers coming in heavy. Uniforms should be worn, clear unambiguous announced warnings made, and an opportunity to respond allowed. Conversely, that means you lose the surprise factor, you give a potential criminal time to both dispose of the find you came to discover and possibly tool up themselves.

Or Fred Hampton?

This is an old, old case (late 60s) from a very troubled time in America & Chicago, and I’m not nearly as familiar with it as recent shootings. However, he was head of the Black Panthers, Police went in heavy, a shotgun was fired against them and they unloaded almost 100 shots into the room killing Hampton and others, I believe. The sequence of events is unclear, but once a shotgun is raised at officers, it doesn’t even need to be used to elicit a deadly force reaction. In this case, it was used and the story changes in an instant. I really can’t comment on who did what to whom and when, but it looks like it would not be out of the question that they took him down and the shotgun gave the officers the opportunity to take some others with him. That said, once that shotgun is raised, all bets are off and there is a good chance people are going to die.

I hope I answered your questions to your satisfaction.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I would simply say that America has always had guns. Cops have always had guns. The problem, or change, is that more people in the streets have guns and people are less respectful of the police. That disrespect creates a greater tension and need for heavier handed policing, and the cycle continues. I had dinner with a friend whose cousins is a cop and whose brother is a DEA Agent. He said the things being screamed in their faces in these “peaceful protests” is the kind of thing that, in any other circumstances, would get you a slap and fired in the spot in any workplace.

The level of abuse aimed at police officers simply doing their jobs is unbelievable. Now, do I agree that George Floyd was killed by the police officer in question? Absolutely. Send him down for life, no problem. However, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. George Floyd didn’t deserve to die for it, but he was NOT a victim until he stopped breathing. Until then, he was a criminal who was going to jail...a place to which he obviously didn’t want to return!

Policing in America is hard. Brutal policing should definitely be dealt with severely. However, the level of public agitation of the police is at a level that is also vastly different than in the UK. As some of you know, I’m a gun owner, government trained, and I have a distinctly different respect for law enforcement than I had. I’ve seen videos where police have been murdered by trying to de-escalate, give the benefit of the doubt, and one guy who had just returned to service after a long inquiry into a good shooting, during which he was publicly castigated. He waited, and waited and waited, trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, even after multiple commands to comply and make the situation safer...shot dead, in cold blood, and the guy just drove off.

I’ve also seen multiple videos of the same situation and how quickly a simple change can turn deadly. Guy pulled over, told to stay in his vehicle. Guy gets out of his pick up truck, which has a rifle mounted in the back window (perfectly legal!). Cop tells him to get back in his truck. Guy approaches cop, cop pulls weapon. Guy gets louder, starts walking back to his truck shouting I’ll get my paperwork (Drivers license and car registration). Cop loses track of the guys hands. Shouts commands to show him his hands, while guy shouts that he’s getting his papers.

At this point, cop is looking at guys back, can’t see his hands (overshirt flapping around in the wind) and man is approaching the open drivers side door. THE MAN HAS BEEN COMPLETELY NON-COMPLIANT TO EVERY SINGLE COMMAND AND IS DOING WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO. Meanwhile, cop has gun drawn, but is NOT in control of the interaction.

At this point, man quarter turns into his pick up cab, reaches in to his right, back still facing the officer, grabs something and swivels quickly to face the cop with his right arm extended: Gun or black leather wallet with DL and Reg???

Cop now playing you bet your life...

Never had control of the interaction. No reasonableness standard would allow him to shoot the guy, even though he is completely non-compliant, originally advanced on the Officer, then retreated with loss of eye contact on his hands, then reached into his vehicle for “something,” then pivoted at the officer with arm outstretched...is a bullet heading his way or is the driver presenting his wallet?

If the officer takes the position that he needs to wait and check to see EXACTLY what is in the man’s hand...and it is a gun being fired...he is dead already.

In short, based on the time it takes for the man to grab, turn and extend his arm, IF the man has grabbed a gun and is turning to shoot him, the officer needs to fire his own weapon BEFORE KNOWING WHAT IS IN HIS HAND!!!

We saw both situations play out and even during simulations, even when you KNOW at least one of the events is going to present a weapon, you are fucked!! You literally have to GUESS CORRECTLY, otherwise you are being accused of murder or signing your own death warrant!!!

So..

A) You wait and it is actually a license and registration.
B) You wait and you’re shot dead at close range.
C) You don’t wait and you shoot him before he gets his shot off on you. He dies, you live.
D) You don’t wait and you shoot him as he hands you a black wallet with papers and you’re prosecuted.

Only ONE of those is even remotely preferable outcome, while THREE OF THEM ARE NEGATIVE OUTCOMES....YOU HAVE A ONE IN FOUR (25%) CHANCE of a positive outcome from any such encounter, and in two of them someone gets shot, and even if it isn’t you, you can expect to be prosecuted, lose your life savings trying to save yourself from life in prison, and ruining your family life forever!

COMPLY, COMPLY, COMPLY...RELAX, RELAX, RELAX...

The officer hones in on YOUR VIBE. Tense, nervous, not following commands, twitchy, moving around, can’t see your hands, window not down, dark in your car, etc, etc, etc...

Stop, lower your window, turn in inside light, hands either out of the window or on top of the steering wheel, palms open, completely non-threatening stance...DO NOT LEAN OVER TO THE GLOVE BOX!

Help the cop and help yourself. Your being pulled because you’ve committed a crime, so don’t think that simply complying should beat the ticket. However, complying, DE-ESCALATING THE EVENT FOR THE OFFICER, and it will greatly help the outcome, and helps the officer be significantly more relaxed. He will appreciate that you have made it easy for him and the threat level drops to 1 out of 10. Lean over to the glove box for your paperwork before he has approached and asked for it and YOU have escalated the event to a 5 out of 10 before a word is said.

There are two sides to how any police interaction goes. Both sides have the ability to de-escalate and both sides SHOULD TRY TO DE-ESCALATE. Unfortunately, that means public compliance with officer commands until he feels safe and in control of the interaction. Do anything to escalate and th Officer starts to feel the threat and things can go bad from there, to include calls for back up, you being classed as a threat, and a strong possibility of removal and handcuffed until the police can be certain there is no further need to neutralize any perceived threat.

Again, one man’s experience and opinion. Like arseholes, we all have one and I’m sure you have your own on mine.

Lastly, during my first full up shooting simulation, I was asked how many shots I had fired when faced with a shooter. I said “3, no 4, because I remember shooting him while he was on the ground as he lifted his head while the gun was still in his hand.” Watched the replay...shot him SEVEN TIMES, 6 before he hit the ground and once on the ground!!! And, the question was asked just a few minutes after the shooting and a quick debrief of why I took the shot when I did, why I didn’t take an earlier shot, or wait, etc... As the adrenaline started to decrease, he casually asked “So, how many times did you shoot and how many times did you hit him?” I was dumbfounded when I watched the replay! I thought I had taken 3 “individual” shots, then 1 more while he was on the ground. Each shot had actually been a double tap, which was an automatic response which we had been trained to do, but it literally felt like one shot.

I tell this story only because until you have faced a gun, and shot to save your own life (even in a simulation), it really is almost impossible to imagine the tension, adrenaline rush, and how you would personally react. For most actual police officers, they go their whole careers and never fire their weapon in anger, so it isn’t a sensation with which they’re familiar, or necessarily an adrenaline shot they recognize and can easily counter. Just sayin’

You’ve described to me exactly what the problem is.
I keep saying take the gun out of society. But it will never happen in America.

Think about it. I personally could not live like that.
You are in a situation where both the public and the police are thinking am I going to get shot, every time you are pulled over for a traffic violation.

That’s far too much stress and adrenaline for what should be normal daily life.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

You’ve described to me exactly what the problem is.
I keep saying take the gun out of society. But it will never happen in America.

Think about it. I personally could not live like that.
You are in a situation where both the public and the police are thinking am I going to get shot, every time you are pulled over for a traffic violation.

That’s far too much stress and adrenaline for what should be normal daily life.

That’s simply not true.

When pulled over for a traffic violation, EVERY ADULT knows that their job is to help the officer know they are not a threat to them. 99.9999999% of traffic violations are just like they are in the UK, but no one cares about those, and those are not the ones highlighted in training, because they don’t need to be trained in minute detail, laws understood to the last period, etc.

What I have tried to explain is that what you see on TV are the ones where there is non-compliance, things turn ugly, and end with a fatality. This is not the norm.

When stopped by the police, do you run? Do you pull a knife? Swing a bat? Or, do you say “Yes, Officer. No, Officer. have a nice day, Officer.” and go on your way, because you WERE speeding?!

If stopped while carrying in Illinois, it is my duty to calmly inform the officer at my earliest opportunity, while assuring him I am compliant, willing to keep complying with any commands, and am not looking to escalate the incident simply because I have a weapon in me.

As I said above, window down, hands visible, no quick or furtive movements. “Officer, it is my legal duty to inform you I am armed. How would you like me to proceed?”

That immediately shows him compliance, understanding of the law and the predicament he is in, and that I have shown myself to open to his commands.

The next question is nearly always, “please tell me where the weapon is, but do not use your hands to show me.”

“Right hip. Glock 19, holstered under my shirt.”

At this point, he may ask for back up before we go any further and just ask me to stay in the car with my hands visible on the steering wheel while he waits for back up.

“Thank you. Do you have your license and registration available for me?”

“Drivers license is in my right pocket, registration is in the glove box”

“OK, with your right hand, please slowly reach over to the glove box, open it and retrieve your registration.”

I would comply.

“Now, turn towards me so I can see your hands and your right pocket. If possible, reach into your right pocket without lifting your shirt and take out your DL.”

The cop should already know who I am, because he has run my car while he was pulling me over before he got out of his own car. The license and registration confirm the information. From there, it’s a matter of a ticket or not, just like always!

Like I said, I’ve been trained, multiple times, by both the feds and the state, and know how to pose zero threat to the police. Others get excitable, feeling like they’re in trouble, even though they’re not. But, no record of CCW while armed is an offence and not a pretty little one, so THAT creates even more excitement and threat, of course!

Guns are a fact of life over here, but most people don’t have them, never come into contact with them, and never even think about them, or even if they do have them, don’t talk about them. I have never mentioned them to my neighbors, nor have they me. It’s something you discuss with friends, just like cars, football, etc. Some have them, others don’t. My two best friends do and we enjoy going to the range to use them and improve our skills...Two handed, single handed, strong hand, weak hand, 2m, 5m, 7m, 10m, three shot drills, two center mass and one to the head drills, timed drills, emergency reload drills, administrative reload drills, “tap, rack, ready” misfire drills, etc, etc, etc...

Just like other aspects of my life, I want to be prepared for all eventualities, and trained for the possible consequences. I take my training seriously, because I know that if I ever draw my weapon I have to be prepared to use it. I never want to have to draw it...EVER. I have one locked by my bedside and two in the safe. The one by the bedside is ready to use within about 3-5 seconds. In Illinois, the law is that a gun can not be used to protect property, only personal safety. So, if someone broke into my house, I can’t shoot someone for trying to steal my TV. However, if I went downstairs to stop them, and they threatened me inside my home, I can now shoot them. If someone breaks in downstairs, I’m not going downstairs. My wife and kids are upstairs and the gun is to protect us, not kill burglars. I would warn them I am armed and they need to leave now as the police have already been called (we live less than a mile from the station) and if they attempt to come upstairs they WILL BE KILLED.

MOST burglars are opportunists and once disturbed have no desire to stick around, especially in America. I doubt they would even leave with anything, as there is very little of any significant value downstairs, and certainly nothing worth dying for!

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

the fact you had to write that should tell you enough.

Imagine if the conversation went:

"Excuse me sir, can I see your license and registration please".
"Of course, officer"
*Get out licence and registration*
*Checked*
"Thank you sir, here's your ticket. Be careful, now on your way".
"Thank you, officer. Have a nice day".

No need for the rest because you don't have a gun and he doesn't need to worry about using his.