George Floyd murder / Derek Chauvin guilty of murder

[Mike Cledford]

Fine in theory but in the UK we are taught a form of basic jiu jitsu and we receive annual training in self defence and unarmed defence tactics but in 25 years I’ve never used it despite dealing with dozens of violent non compliant offenders-many are in drink or under the influence of drugs and you are wearing loads of gear, heavy stab vest, utility belt-it often ends up in an almighty struggle until you can get a handcuff on-see the hackney video. Restraining someone when they really don’t want to be is almost always not a pretty sight. The difference here is obviously less guns, that said knives are much more prevalent. But at 52 I leave in Oct. Its a job that has become increasingly hard-both sides of the Atlantic.

Bill watching the Traffic Cops in Derbyshire on channel 5 it seems they are very 'active' carrying out arrests getting people out of cars and even with assistance it is often hard work. Quite often the suspects say the cuffs are hurting them or the arm up up the back etc restraint hold is hurting them.
The first time l saw a clip of George Floyd it seemed he was under control of the arresting officer who was waiting for transport to take him away. I assumed Mr Floyd must have died later - in the van or at the station.
The next time l saw the incident it used the same clip and it had been revealed he had shouted he coulndt breathe and that he had been held in that position for nearly nine minutes. So I have seen the one clip
twice but have no wish to see a man dyingagain anymore l would wish to see ISIS executions.
But from what l saw the officer seemed calm and he knew full well he was being filmed. He did not seem to me to be knowingly killing a man although the length of time obviously was far too long.
I wonder what your view is from the sharp end. If we do not wish to say I understand.

 

[inbetween]

That’s simply not true.

When pulled over for a traffic violation, EVERY ADULT knows that their job is to help the officer know they are not a threat to them. 99.9999999% of traffic violations are just like they are in the UK, but no one cares about those, and those are not the ones highlighted in training, because they don’t need to be trained in minute detail, laws understood to the last period, etc.

What I have tried to explain is that what you see on TV are the ones where there is non-compliance, things turn ugly, and end with a fatality. This is not the norm.

When stopped by the police, do you run? Do you pull a knife? Swing a bat? Or, do you say “Yes, Officer. No, Officer. have a nice day, Officer.” and go on your way, because you WERE speeding?!

If stopped while carrying in Illinois, it is my duty to calmly inform the officer at my earliest opportunity, while assuring him I am compliant, willing to keep complying with any commands, and am not looking to escalate the incident simply because I have a weapon in me.

As I said above, window down, hands visible, no quick or furtive movements. “Officer, it is my legal duty to inform you I am armed. How would you like me to proceed?”

That immediately shows him compliance, understanding of the law and the predicament he is in, and that I have shown myself to open to his commands.

The next question is nearly always, “please tell me where the weapon is, but do not use your hands to show me.”

“Right hip. Glock 19, holstered under my shirt.”

At this point, he may ask for back up before we go any further and just ask me to stay in the car with my hands visible on the steering wheel while he waits for back up.

“Thank you. Do you have your license and registration available for me?”

“Drivers license is in my right pocket, registration is in the glove box”

“OK, with your right hand, please slowly reach over to the glove box, open it and retrieve your registration.”

I would comply.

“Now, turn towards me so I can see your hands and your right pocket. If possible, reach into your right pocket without lifting your shirt and take out your DL.”

The cop should already know who I am, because he has run my car while he was pulling me over before he got out of his own car. The license and registration confirm the information. From there, it’s a matter of a ticket or not, just like always!

Like I said, I’ve been trained, multiple times, by both the feds and the state, and know how to pose zero threat to the police. Others get excitable, feeling like they’re in trouble, even though they’re not. But, no record of CCW while armed is an offence and not a pretty little one, so THAT creates even more excitement and threat, of course!

Guns are a fact of life over here, but most people don’t have them, never come into contact with them, and never even think about them, or even if they do have them, don’t talk about them. I have never mentioned them to my neighbors, nor have they me. It’s something you discuss with friends, just like cars, football, etc. Some have them, others don’t. My two best friends do and we enjoy going to the range to use them and improve our skills...Two handed, single handed, strong hand, weak hand, 2m, 5m, 7m, 10m, three shot drills, two center mass and one to the head drills, timed drills, emergency reload drills, administrative reload drills, “tap, rack, ready” misfire drills, etc, etc, etc...

Just like other aspects of my life, I want to be prepared for all eventualities, and trained for the possible consequences. I take my training seriously, because I know that if I ever draw my weapon I have to be prepared to use it. I never want to have to draw it...EVER. I have one locked by my bedside and two in the safe. The one by the bedside is ready to use within about 3-5 seconds. In Illinois, the law is that a gun can not be used to protect property, only personal safety. So, if someone broke into my house, I can’t shoot someone for trying to steal my TV. However, if I went downstairs to stop them, and they threatened me inside my home, I can now shoot them. If someone breaks in downstairs, I’m not going downstairs. My wife and kids are upstairs and the gun is to protect us, not kill burglars. I would warn them I am armed and they need to leave now as the police have already been called (we live less than a mile from the station) and if they attempt to come upstairs they WILL BE KILLED.

MOST burglars are opportunists and once disturbed have no desire to stick around, especially in America. I doubt they would even leave with anything, as there is very little of any significant value downstairs, and certainly nothing worth dying for!

It seems to just be a cultural problem in the US, particularly because it's a way of life where gun ownership is not surprising. If my neighbour owned a gun then I'd think twice about letting my kids outside.... I guess in the US you wouldn't care if the whole street was armed.

To compare this to the UK - I live in a town of perhaps 10,000 people, quite close to a small city of perhaps 150,000. I know of only 1 or 2 gun related crimes in the 30+ years I have lived here. Gun ownership is actually legal to a degree but it's not a legal right and ownership is very tightly controlled by the police. As a result there is no gun culture whether for protection or sport, no-one wants one and no-one talks about them because they know nothing about them.

We still have burglaries though, we still have crime, they just don't involve guns because quite simply no-one has one. As a result the amount of gun related murders is virtually non-existant as are police shootings. I think the police shot 3 people last year in total and all of them were terrorists armed with knives, even the terrorists don't have guns here! We are still having debates in the UK on whether it's safe for the whole police force to be armed with tazers...

A change in gun regulation in the US would solve it over time but I don't think the appetite is there, primarily because indeed people feel they need the protection.... But the law is the one thing that facilitates that need... It's just a vicious cycle that I don't think you guys will ever get out of.

 

[Bigga]

Any cop being shot at, even with a taser, has the lawful ability to neutralize the attacker. I’m honestly surprised he wasn’t shot in the scuffle when he tried to get away.

Fighting with a police officer, who is wearing a deadly weapon, is stupidity in all its glory. The Officer HAS TO PROTECT THE WEAPON, or it is likely to be used against him. An officer who is being shot by a taser understands that being neutralized in almost certain death. “Anyone who would shoot a cop with a taser will shoot him with a gun” has to be the bottom line.

On George Floyd...we have seen him escorted out of his car to the wall. We have seen him being knelt on. What we haven’t seen is how he ended up in the floor by the side of the Police SUV when they were trying to get him in the back seat. Now, don’t ignore the fact that he is 6’5” tall and an ex-athlete, or the fact that two of the officers ran around to the curbside of the vehicle to help pull him into the SUV.

Floyd was no innocent party to what ensued up to that point. The Police were called because the shopkeeper said he was trying to pass a fake $20 bill. (BTW, that’s a Federal Offence, and a Secret Service matter, So it was going to go waaaay up the chain if it was true). Until he RESISTED in being put into the Police SUV, this was a no-brainer, “you’ve been copped, let’s sort this out downtown” matter. Once he resisted, and FOIR OFFICERS couldn’t get him into the SUV, they subdued him in the ground while they waited for back-up. Think about that, FOUR POLICE OFFICERS, two of whom were young, athletic rookies, couldn’t get one man into an SUV!!!

Now, the knee in the neck and ignoring the plea that he couldn’t breathe? That is abuse leading to death and the officers involved should be punished to the full extent of the law. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT!

However, where I do have a problem is the “blackwashing” (if I can use that term in this instance) of the FACTS of what led up to Mr Floyd being in the ground in the first place.

Indeed, he has been eulogized as a model citizen doing God’s work in the community (since coming out of prison for other offenses, including armed robbery!), but NO-ONE can say, with a straight face, that he wasn’t being sought for committing a federal offence, that everything was being done properly and safely, and that normal procedures were going long just fine until he began fighting being placed in the Police SUV.

When we see the video of the street side of the SUV when they were trying to put him in the vehicle, I think we might gain a much greater understanding of what the officers encountered and Mr Floyd’s actions in that regard.

Again, the knee on the neck, face ground into the asphalt, another officer kneeling in his back, etc, etc, etc...ALL UNNECESSARY POLICE BRUTALITY LEADING TO DEATH, and should be prosecuted as such.

No angels involved in this event, from A to Z. Sadly, an alleged criminal died because another one of them was a brutal racist with a badge, and he killed him.

I am a HUGE PROPONENT of de-escalation. That is not as easy in America as it sounds, because no-one knows who has a gun and who doesn’t. All the talking in the world means nothing if the person has a deadly weapon hidden on them, and is ready to use it, or is holding one and raises it.

I prefer police to neutralize that threat before it kills them...those are the rules!

“Normal” people don’t threaten the police, don’t fight with the police, don’t get themselves into these kinds of situations. COMPLY and let the system work, because non-compliance is a losing strategy, sometimes leading to death.

Preparing for incoming...

Half of this post is utter shit! But I expect that from you at the moment!

As has been pointed out earlier, if you'd bothered to read, once a taser has been discharged it would have to be reset and a civilian would have to know how to do all that whilst running AWAY! The officer was NOT in danger.

How is it these cops, who find it acceptable to fire a taser at a civilian, with no knowledge or regard for their medical condition "fear for their lives" when a taser has been discharged?

“Anyone who would shoot a civilian with a taser will shoot him with a gun” is also the bottom line as has been proven!

I would think this guy that was MURDERED by cop, shot in the back, probably thought he was in fear for his OWN life with the latest spate of murdering of Black people which, unfortunately proved evident.

P.s.,it's been noted that it was only a SUSPICION that GF handled the fake $20, not definitive proof.

And if many people had come out and said G Floyd had been trying to steer young people away from trouble as a 'mentor', then despite whatever grievances he had in his past life, I'd rather focus on the fact he was trying to do something positive.

And lastly nobody can be "blackwashing" (fucking nonsense term tinged with racism) anything if that portion of video is missing.

Pretty pathetic post in defence of a police force who continue to lie in order to exact murder under the unchallenged guise of "fear of life".

Why do these fuckers choose this as a job, then?

 

[Bigga]

Mate I would never carry a gun.its an awful situation that quickly deteriorated.

Whilst I understand that, it never answered my question.

I take you'd have chosen to give chase?

 

[Bigga]

The problem in America is when the cops get into certain situations they don’t want to police they want to shoot. What is wrong with chasing that guy down? Why is the first thought to shoot? It’s madness. Taking a life should be the absolute last resort when other lives were in danger, which clearly isn’t the case, again, in this situation.

Exactly!

I've mentioned this earlier.

 

[bert38]

Whilst I understand that, it never answered my question.

I take you'd have chosen to give chase?

Depends-am I going to run after someone pointing a taser at me? What happens if I am incapacitated. Do I know him in which case I can decide to let him flee and arrest him later when its safer. Its very hard to put yourself in the mind of the officer.

We have to be very careful in this country. We run the risk of demonising the police to such an extent that people don't do as they are told-and that leads to more conflict and people getting hurt during interactions with the police-both police and public. The huge majority of interactions occur without any use of force.

 

[Bigga]

Your book might be right in your own mind. The question is “Is MCFC1993’s book the law in Georgia?”

The person is running away but firing a taser. If the policeman is hit by the taser, he loses control of the situation, and thus his weapon. THAT is the difference.

Now, the question will be whether he had ANY REASONABLE risk of losing control of his weapon?

Personally, I think it was RASH to shoot him. I don’t think he SHOULD have felt his life was in any jeopardy, given the totality of the situation, including the fact that he had a partner with him. I DO think he was operating at a very high level of Adrenalin and, even after two police officers struggled to contain the man (because they couldn’t use a chokehold to subdue him!) he was still a threat BECAUSE HE STOLE A WEAPON FROM AN OFFICER.

I have no idea why he reacted the way he did...fight, steal an officer’s weapon, run...but he paid a high price for what was, until that point, a DUI (unless there was much worse going on, to include other warrants, drugs, weapons, etc...

It’s poor timing, to be sure, but I simply cannot understand why people react to the police the way they do. Comply, listen to commands, sort it out in court with an attorney. Fighting with the police is a losing strategy for a long, full life.

(PS. there are two taser charges. He fired one and still had one left)

Hey man, fuck you and your bullshit.

Look at this vid. Any fucking reasonable cop would have took his keys and asked him to return home on foot, like he said he would. Just collect the keys from the station instead in turns out like this...

 

[Bigga]

@ChicagoBlue you suggest part of the problem is a proliferation of guns. Can you please explain why you own a gun? Would you give up your gun to be part of a solution?

How does what you posted explain deaths such as Breonna Taylor? Or Fred Hampton?

He can't and won't explain any of that crap.

There's rumours floating around that Breonna Taylor witnessed a murder by one of these cops. The person they claimed they were in pursuit of they already had in detention by another team, but chose to go to Taylor's house anyway with an unjustified 'no knock' warrant. Unjustified!

No reasons filled out on the incident report just makes you think...

 

[Bigga]

That’s simply not true.

When pulled over for a traffic violation, EVERY ADULT knows that their job is to help the officer know they are not a threat to them. 99.9999999% of traffic violations are just like they are in the UK, but no one cares about those, and those are not the ones highlighted in training, because they don’t need to be trained in minute detail, laws understood to the last period, etc.

What I have tried to explain is that what you see on TV are the ones where there is non-compliance, things turn ugly, and end with a fatality. This is not the norm.

When stopped by the police, do you run? Do you pull a knife? Swing a bat? Or, do you say “Yes, Officer. No, Officer. have a nice day, Officer.” and go on your way, because you WERE speeding?!

If stopped while carrying in Illinois, it is my duty to calmly inform the officer at my earliest opportunity, while assuring him I am compliant, willing to keep complying with any commands, and am not looking to escalate the incident simply because I have a weapon in me.

As I said above, window down, hands visible, no quick or furtive movements. “Officer, it is my legal duty to inform you I am armed. How would you like me to proceed?”

That immediately shows him compliance, understanding of the law and the predicament he is in, and that I have shown myself to open to his commands.

The next question is nearly always, “please tell me where the weapon is, but do not use your hands to show me.”

“Right hip. Glock 19, holstered under my shirt.”

At this point, he may ask for back up before we go any further and just ask me to stay in the car with my hands visible on the steering wheel while he waits for back up.

“Thank you. Do you have your license and registration available for me?”

“Drivers license is in my right pocket, registration is in the glove box”

“OK, with your right hand, please slowly reach over to the glove box, open it and retrieve your registration.”

I would comply.

“Now, turn towards me so I can see your hands and your right pocket. If possible, reach into your right pocket without lifting your shirt and take out your DL.”

The cop should already know who I am, because he has run my car while he was pulling me over before he got out of his own car. The license and registration confirm the information. From there, it’s a matter of a ticket or not, just like always!

Like I said, I’ve been trained, multiple times, by both the feds and the state, and know how to pose zero threat to the police. Others get excitable, feeling like they’re in trouble, even though they’re not. But, no record of CCW while armed is an offence and not a pretty little one, so THAT creates even more excitement and threat, of course!

Guns are a fact of life over here, but most people don’t have them, never come into contact with them, and never even think about them, or even if they do have them, don’t talk about them. I have never mentioned them to my neighbors, nor have they me. It’s something you discuss with friends, just like cars, football, etc. Some have them, others don’t. My two best friends do and we enjoy going to the range to use them and improve our skills...Two handed, single handed, strong hand, weak hand, 2m, 5m, 7m, 10m, three shot drills, two center mass and one to the head drills, timed drills, emergency reload drills, administrative reload drills, “tap, rack, ready” misfire drills, etc, etc, etc...

Just like other aspects of my life, I want to be prepared for all eventualities, and trained for the possible consequences. I take my training seriously, because I know that if I ever draw my weapon I have to be prepared to use it. I never want to have to draw it...EVER. I have one locked by my bedside and two in the safe. The one by the bedside is ready to use within about 3-5 seconds. In Illinois, the law is that a gun can not be used to protect property, only personal safety. So, if someone broke into my house, I can’t shoot someone for trying to steal my TV. However, if I went downstairs to stop them, and they threatened me inside my home, I can now shoot them. If someone breaks in downstairs, I’m not going downstairs. My wife and kids are upstairs and the gun is to protect us, not kill burglars. I would warn them I am armed and they need to leave now as the police have already been called (we live less than a mile from the station) and if they attempt to come upstairs they WILL BE KILLED.

MOST burglars are opportunists and once disturbed have no desire to stick around, especially in America. I doubt they would even leave with anything, as there is very little of any significant value downstairs, and certainly nothing worth dying for!

Did you apply this 'compliance' shit to Philando Castile? Followed instructions and was murdered for doing so.

The cop found not guilty.

You talk some shit.

 

[mrbelfry]

I’m not sure what solution I am the problem to.

This one:

The problem, or change, is that more people in the streets have guns

The two cases I raised because they didn't fit the road traffic narrative you had stated - I could have used the Philando Castile example. Perhaps some communities are distrustful of police when incidents like these happen. I raised Fred Hampton partly because of the similarities to the Breona Taylor incident and that it happened so long ago - seems some lessons are harder to learn than others. The Black Panthers were in turn formed as a response to police brutality. Is it perhaps understandable why you and a police officer might approach compliance from a different start point?

You apply a lot of nuance in those two cases that you don't want to apply towards traffic cops. For what it is worth I have some sympathy with individual police officers who are at the sharp end of much they can't control particular in terms of generations of failings. Not every cop is a racist looking for a reason to kill - sometimes they are just the last action in a long list of stuff that is screwed up.