God

[spanish blue]

Can re-post what you wrote or give me the page it's on?

I'm interested.

Here you go Bigga.

Just a different slant on the subject. I have recently been reading a book about NDEs, now the Author was a surgeon that goes by the name of Raymond A moody, and he had if you like, a hands on experience with NDEs. Of the people that he interviewed shortly after a NDE, there was a very small percentage that reported having a very bad/nasty experience, in which the subject said that he/she came face to face with a truly despicable and very upsetting image, in which a being came towards him/her as if to collect them, until another being telepathically said(all NDErs report telepathy rather than speech) it is not his/her turn yet, take them back upstairs, and the subject reported seeing a million people and all were whining, screaming and crying, also complaing that they had no water and they were very thirsty and needed help, a very upsetting thing for the NDE'er to have experienced. Now of the good NDEs, nearly everyone reported a blissful experience and infact were pissed off with the medics for returning them to this realm or existance. Nearly all reported being shown a re-run if you like of their own lives, and the thing that they most remembered was being shown were they have upset a person(s) and were indeed made to feel how the upset person actually felt, only magnified a 100 times so that the subject felt the full impact of their own actions, and as i said earlier, all new what the beings were saying through telepathy, crystal clear as well.

Sorry to deviate but i gthought it relevant to throw in the old NDE situation.

sorry if this has already been discussed. my husband has been doing a lot of research into dmt (dimethyltryptamine) it is a chemical naturally produced by the pineal gland in the brain, when we are in rem sleep the brain is flooded with dmt and this is when we dream it also floods the brain just before death. dmt can be made from various plants and barks so i believe and then smoked people who smoke it talk about seeing bright lights and meeting energies that appear to be aliens after they come out of it most feel euphoric and peaceful some but only a few scared at what they have seen. there are probably a lot of books, text etc about this but the one my husband is reading is called dmt the spirit molecule for those who want to research it. i am no expert on this but it could explain the seeing of lights when we die and to who we may be meeting on the otherside if there is one. there is also somewhere on youtube comedian joe rogan (he also did fear factor) taking dmt and talking about what he experienced apparently its quite an eye opener.

 

[hilts]

Here you go Bigga.

Just a different slant on the subject. I have recently been reading a book about NDEs, now the Author was a surgeon that goes by the name of Raymond A moody, and he had if you like, a hands on experience with NDEs. Of the people that he interviewed shortly after a NDE, there was a very small percentage that reported having a very bad/nasty experience, in which the subject said that he/she came face to face with a truly despicable and very upsetting image, in which a being came towards him/her as if to collect them, until another being telepathically said(all NDErs report telepathy rather than speech) it is not his/her turn yet, take them back upstairs, and the subject reported seeing a million people and all were whining, screaming and crying, also complaing that they had no water and they were very thirsty and needed help, a very upsetting thing for the NDE'er to have experienced. Now of the good NDEs, nearly everyone reported a blissful experience and infact were pissed off with the medics for returning them to this realm or existance. Nearly all reported being shown a re-run if you like of their own lives, and the thing that they most remembered was being shown were they have upset a person(s) and were indeed made to feel how the upset person actually felt, only magnified a 100 times so that the subject felt the full impact of their own actions, and as i said earlier, all new what the beings were saying through telepathy, crystal clear as well.

Sorry to deviate but i gthought it relevant to throw in the old NDE situation.

sorry if this has already been discussed. my husband has been doing a lot of research into dmt (dimethyltryptamine) it is a chemical naturally produced by the pineal gland in the brain, when we are in rem sleep the brain is flooded with dmt and this is when we dream it also floods the brain just before death. dmt can be made from various plants and barks so i believe and then smoked people who smoke it talk about seeing bright lights and meeting energies that appear to be aliens after they come out of it most feel euphoric and peaceful some but only a few scared at what they have seen. there are probably a lot of books, text etc about this but the one my husband is reading is called dmt the spirit molecule for those who want to research it. i am no expert on this but it could explain the seeing of lights when we die and to who we may be meeting on the otherside if there is one. there is also somewhere on youtube comedian joe rogan (he also did fear factor) taking dmt and talking about what he experienced apparently its quite an eye opener.

my problem would be that if nde's are caused by natural chemical reactions in the brain and they are nothing more than a vivid dream why would most people dream similar things? i have had many dreams and none have given me the feeling of being outside my own body or a light filled tunnel, will be interesting to see the reults of the tests they are doing with pictures on the hospital floor

 

[ElanJo]

Well if you're looking for a definition of God, or something that tells you what God is like (which I guess is how define is defined!), then look at the gospels, because they talk about God revealing himself to mankind in human form. If you look at the life he leads, he does not promote violence, he does not look down on those who society looks down on, he dedicates himself to saving all mankind...even to death on a cross.

He also believes in eternal punishment and thought-crime.

The general definition of the Biblical God is completely illogical. All-powerful, All-knowing etc. is a contradictory mess.

This will probably be met with abuse, ridicule etc, but to be honest I don't really care, because I'm not saying this for my benefit.

There is historical evidence (<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus</a>) that Jesus lived on earth and was executed by the Romans. Even the Qur'an recognises him as a prophet.

And yet nothing contempory at all. Was there some guy called Yeshua who got executed? probably. Was there a guy called Yeshua, the Messiah, who spent his life performing miracles etc? That requires better evidence than notes many years after his death. For someone this out of the ordinary to not have a single contempory account is quite odd don't you think?

I'll admit that there's an argument that says that Jesus wasn't really dead, or that he was never put in the tomb, or that the disciples stole his body and pretended that he was alive. But Romans were professional killers. They didn't establish an empire by semi-killing people, in fact if the soldiers hadn't done their job of crucifying Jesus to death, then they probably would have been put to death themselves.

And if Jesus' body wasn't in that tomb, and the disciples were claiming he was alive, surely the authorities (Roman or Jewish) would have produced his body to quell such claims.

But what for me is the most convincing piece of evidence is that the disciples later died because they believed that Jesus rose from the dead. Nobody dies for a lie. If they'd stolen the body, and been threatened with death, human nature dictates that the body would have been produced over dying for something completely made up. Who would sacrifice their own life for the sake of something that they knew to be false? And if Jesus did rise from the dead, then that makes him God.

I'm not here to bash anyone over the head with my Bible, I'm just presenting a Christian perspective to this discussion. I'm more than happy to take questions and comments.

People die for a lie quite often. Voluntary False Confessions, to protect others and other forms of sacrifice, under coercion or torture, for the 'greater good' and even for something as simple as fame.
If any of the above occured within a religious context then you'd go down as a Martyr...

If you believe in the resurrection then do you also believe Matthew 27:51-53?

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

For what can only be described as the invasion of the zombies not to have a single contempory or extra biblical account is utterly astounding.


Here's a question. Do you think that the Bible is the word of God? To be more specific, do you think its moral teachings are derived from God?

 

[lloydie]

Nope, that was me and I'm sorry that you find it laughable that people do serious research into things that are unexplained. Why not tell you it "may be caused by an electrical surge" ? Do you know as an absolute certainty that it isn't? If so I suggest you publish your proof and you'll be the hailed as the discoverer of the most earth shattering news, ever in the history of ever. I suspect god will not provide you with this proof as this would diminish his required mystery. Your quite entitled to your view but you seriously underestimate the power of the human mind if you think your imagination is incapable of this leap.
You may like to look at my post again which merely suggests that there may be a biological explanation for the phenomena. It is not so far from NDE to the "Incubus and Succubus" phenomena which for many centuries were ascribed to devils and demons but have now been induced in lab conditions. Further, many Shamen and experimenters report out of body experiences when using brain chemical altering substances or using meditation techniques. You seem to have a closed mind on this so I'll leave you to whatever makes you happy, my suspicion is that the cause of the effect will some day come to be understood without the need for an other worldly explanation. and, moreover, this will not make your life worthless, regardless of the emotional attachment you have to your spiritual self justification.
You are perfectly entitled to your beliefs but to sneer at science for trying to expand our knowledge or understanding is rather more laughable than suggesting that your personal experience is subjective and not empirical.

Are you sure?? You can't contradict yourself so readily. By your own admittance, there have been studies of the phenomena all leading the same conclusion stated by the patients. I have merely added my own statement.

There is no possible connection between 'an electrical charge' and 'vivid imaginations'. None whatsoever. That, in itself, is pure speculation. And laughable. Hence the reason for my 'offence' riposte to your article.

I'll tell you what IS interesting in the article, that everyone tells the same story of being 'called back' and the fearing of the end of their time on earth dissipating. I can concur with that.

So here's my question: why does the individual brain travel the same path as everyone else? "You are not ready!"?? Why these words? We all have different experiences in Life, so why are we not told different things? How can experience of this event be 'subjective' if we all get told the same thing?

Surely THIS is the most intriguing question?

I'm not contradicting myself at all, conclusions made by patients are subjective, that a flood of electrochemical activity at such points can be measured is empirical. Should the patients hold similar cultural and environmental experiences/determinants then is more than likely that the visions they see and the conclusions they arrive at are going to be similar. Take a look at the similarity of alien abduction reports and how over a period of time they began to become more like one another as the cultural currency gained ground and once people knew what they were expected to see the more they saw it.
How we respond to stimulae has been widely studied by neuroscientists and psychologists, the mind and imagination can quite clearly be affected by electromagnetism and chemicals ( the brain's whole operating system is electrochemical), to say otherwise is plain wrong. To say it is laughable just shows that you're not up for a rational discussion and are reacting emotionally.

Cheers to Spanishblue, interesting post re DMT.

 

[mammutly]

When it comes to discussions about neurology, I have nothing much to say on this forum. I will say, however, that there is no evidence linking any anatomical, neurochemical, or emergent process of the brain with any distinct qualitative experience. Researchers have looked at possible links between variations in neurochemistry and particular experiences or perceptions. None have ever been found.

 

[chestervegasblue]

Well if you're looking for a definition of God, or something that tells you what God is like (which I guess is how define is defined!), then look at the gospels, because they talk about God revealing himself to mankind in human form. If you look at the life he leads, he does not promote violence, he does not look down on those who society looks down on, he dedicates himself to saving all mankind...even to death on a cross.

He also believes in eternal punishment and thought-crime.

The general definition of the Biblical God is completely illogical. All-powerful, All-knowing etc. is a contradictory mess.

This will probably be met with abuse, ridicule etc, but to be honest I don't really care, because I'm not saying this for my benefit.

There is historical evidence (<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus</a>) that Jesus lived on earth and was executed by the Romans. Even the Qur'an recognises him as a prophet.

And yet nothing contempory at all. Was there some guy called Yeshua who got executed? probably. Was there a guy called Yeshua, the Messiah, who spent his life performing miracles etc? That requires better evidence than notes many years after his death. For someone this out of the ordinary to not have a single contempory account is quite odd don't you think?

I'll admit that there's an argument that says that Jesus wasn't really dead, or that he was never put in the tomb, or that the disciples stole his body and pretended that he was alive. But Romans were professional killers. They didn't establish an empire by semi-killing people, in fact if the soldiers hadn't done their job of crucifying Jesus to death, then they probably would have been put to death themselves.

And if Jesus' body wasn't in that tomb, and the disciples were claiming he was alive, surely the authorities (Roman or Jewish) would have produced his body to quell such claims.

But what for me is the most convincing piece of evidence is that the disciples later died because they believed that Jesus rose from the dead. Nobody dies for a lie. If they'd stolen the body, and been threatened with death, human nature dictates that the body would have been produced over dying for something completely made up. Who would sacrifice their own life for the sake of something that they knew to be false? And if Jesus did rise from the dead, then that makes him God.

I'm not here to bash anyone over the head with my Bible, I'm just presenting a Christian perspective to this discussion. I'm more than happy to take questions and comments.

People die for a lie quite often. Voluntary False Confessions, to protect others and other forms of sacrifice, under coercion or torture, for the 'greater good' and even for something as simple as fame.
If any of the above occured within a religious context then you'd go down as a Martyr...

If you believe in the resurrection then do you also believe Matthew 27:51-53?

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

For what can only be described as the invasion of the zombies not to have a single contempory or extra biblical account is utterly astounding.


Here's a question. Do you think that the Bible is the word of God? To be more specific, do you think its moral teachings are derived from God?

Thanks for your response ElanoJo:

Point 1) He also believes in eternal punishment...

This is because God takes our decisions seriously, he respects our choice. If we choose to follow him, then the fruit of our choice is eternal life. If we choose not to follow him, then the fruit of our choice is eternal death. It's spelled out clearly in the Bible, God gives us this choice because he loves us...and part of that love is respect for our free will. If he just let everyone in to heaven, then he does not respect the decisions that we make on earth.

Point 2) and thought crime.

God does not want anything to get in the way of his relationship with us. Sin is conscious movement away from God, and you don't do that without thinking about it...so saying that thinking about sinning is a crime is acknowledging that the thought process is what leads to sin. If you didn't think you wanted to hit someone, you wouldn't do it.

Point 3) How is all-knowing/all-powerful a contradictory mess? If God is the creator of everything, surely he has to be all of these things?

Point 4) I'd be able to sympathise with your Voluntary False Confessions theory if the disciples hadn't all abandoned and denied Jesus before he was crucified. They didn't sacrifice themselves to try to protect Jesus then, they ran. Something must have changed massively to truly convince them that Jesus was worth dying for.


Pont 5)

And yet nothing contempory at all

Anything within 100 years of an event in that period of history is classed as very reliable. There's Flavius Josephus as well, a Jewish historian, who wrote between c.37AD and 100AD.

Also, at the time, the people who are going to record the history are either going to be Jewish, and they didn't like Jesus or think he was the Messiah, or Roman, who had their own Gods and did not like their authority being challenged. There's also the risk of being killed for writing something blasphemous. Why would you risk it if you didn't believe?

Yes I do believe in the resurrection; as for the multiple resurrection of the saints, I believe it is possible (again, I believe God created everything, so I believe that this is possible), but whether this event happened or not I'm unsure, given that this is a Matthean addition; this event does not appear in Mark, Luke or John.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I look to Jesus for my moral teachings. There is nothing that he does that contradicts the moral teachings given to the Israelites in the Old Testament. So yes, I believe its moral teachings are derived from God.

 

[Bigga]

Are you sure?? You can't contradict yourself so readily. By your own admittance, there have been studies of the phenomena all leading the same conclusion stated by the patients. I have merely added my own statement.

There is no possible connection between 'an electrical charge' and 'vivid imaginations'. None whatsoever. That, in itself, is pure speculation. And laughable. Hence the reason for my 'offence' riposte to your article.

I'll tell you what IS interesting in the article, that everyone tells the same story of being 'called back' and the fearing of the end of their time on earth dissipating. I can concur with that.

So here's my question: why does the individual brain travel the same path as everyone else? "You are not ready!"?? Why these words? We all have different experiences in Life, so why are we not told different things? How can experience of this event be 'subjective' if we all get told the same thing?

Surely THIS is the most intriguing question?

I'm not contradicting myself at all, conclusions made by patients are subjective, that a flood of electrochemical activity at such points can be measured is empirical. Should the patients hold similar cultural and environmental experiences/determinants then is more than likely that the visions they see and the conclusions they arrive at are going to be similar. Take a look at the similarity of alien abduction reports and how over a period of time they began to become more like one another as the cultural currency gained ground and once people knew what they were expected to see the more they saw it.
How we respond to stimulae has been widely studied by neuroscientists and psychologists, the mind and imagination can quite clearly be affected by electromagnetism and chemicals ( the brain's whole operating system is electrochemical), to say otherwise is plain wrong. To say it is laughable just shows that you're not up for a rational discussion and are reacting emotionally.

Cheers to Spanishblue, interesting post re DMT.

You're using the "Alien Abduction" argument as a guideline to what people experience in ND?? Are you serious??!! As Mammutly says...

Researchers have looked at possible links between variations in neurochemistry and particular experiences or perceptions. None have ever been found.

Isn't that similar to what I posted except not as eloquently??

I could say that people who get drunk past a certain limit all see a pink 6ft rabbit called 'Harvey'.

It would hold as much of an argument as what you said.

 

[lloydie]

I'm not contradicting myself at all, conclusions made by patients are subjective, that a flood of electrochemical activity at such points can be measured is empirical. Should the patients hold similar cultural and environmental experiences/determinants then is more than likely that the visions they see and the conclusions they arrive at are going to be similar. Take a look at the similarity of alien abduction reports and how over a period of time they began to become more like one another as the cultural currency gained ground and once people knew what they were expected to see the more they saw it.
How we respond to stimulae has been widely studied by neuroscientists and psychologists, the mind and imagination can quite clearly be affected by electromagnetism and chemicals ( the brain's whole operating system is electrochemical), to say otherwise is plain wrong. To say it is laughable just shows that you're not up for a rational discussion and are reacting emotionally.

Cheers to Spanishblue, interesting post re DMT.

You're using the "Alien Abduction" argument as a guideline to what people experience in ND?? Are you serious??!! As Mammutly says...

Researchers have looked at possible links between variations in neurochemistry and particular experiences or perceptions. None have ever been found.

Isn't that similar to what I posted except not as eloquently??

I could say that people who get drunk past a certain limit all see a pink 6ft rabbit called 'Harvey'.

It would hold as much of an argument as what you said.

Straw men everywhere!
If you dont want to accept that there's a link between cultural constructs and hallucinatory imagination thats up to you but here's a start.....
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6092471" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6092471</a>

Read my posts again. You quite clearly feel strongly in what you believe but you shouldn't get so upset about others not believing the truth of your revelation, you'll be calling me a heretic next.

 

[mammutly]

You're using the "Alien Abduction" argument as a guideline to what people experience in ND?? Are you serious??!! As Mammutly says...


Isn't that similar to what I posted except not as eloquently??

I could say that people who get drunk past a certain limit all see a pink 6ft rabbit called 'Harvey'.

It would hold as much of an argument as what you said.

Straw men everywhere!
If you dont want to accept that there's a link between cultural constructs and hallucinatory imagination thats up to you but here's a start.....
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6092471" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6092471</a>

Read my posts again. You quite clearly feel strongly in what you believe but you shouldn't get so upset about others not believing the truth of your revelation, you'll be calling me a heretic next.

There is a general link between cultural constructs and the broad content of hallucinatory experiences. However, no assocaition between any neurochemical brain state and a particular thought/image/ experience has ever been established.

 

[lloydie]

Straw men everywhere!
If you dont want to accept that there's a link between cultural constructs and hallucinatory imagination thats up to you but here's a start.....
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6092471" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6092471</a>

Read my posts again. You quite clearly feel strongly in what you believe but you shouldn't get so upset about others not believing the truth of your revelation, you'll be calling me a heretic next.

There is a general link between cultural constructs and the broad content of hallucinatory experiences. However, no assocaition between any neurochemical brain state and a particular thought/image/ experience has ever been established.

I heard you the first time but thankyou for making my point for me.