good debate - gone off track

[Matty]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

Fine, I accept all the above but it doesn't really address the question of why people get so upset about it and why some City fans continually bang on about how bad it is. By having such a tender reaction to it and then resisting it and petitioning against it continually you are highlighting a non-issue and doing the club more harm than the people who actually chant about it. I just don't accept that a healthy adult mind living in the year 2009 should get genuinely upset by the singing of such a childish and puerile song.

Whether you accept the fact a grown male can get upset by the chants or not isn't important, what is important is that, on both sides of the fence, there are fans that do. City fans get upset becasue of the bad light it reflects on the club and, by association, on them. United fans get upset because, as City fans would if the scenario was reversed, it's taking the piss out of players who died whilst representing the club we the fans love.

What you're doing is saying that those who react to the chants are actually the ones causing the problem, that's like blaming the person who retaliates in a fight for the whole incident. Yes, perhaps they shouldn't retaliate but, had the first punch not been thrown then there would have been nothing to retaliate to.

Describing the chants as a "non-issue" is simply your opinion and it is the basis for your entire argument, the fact that many don't see it as such negates the rest of your point.

 

[Halfpenny]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

this site makes me laugh, just been issued a warning for saying i dont care about an ex city player who played 30 years before i was born. ooops sorry!!

i suppose that makes me a sad fan hey.

Mercer was manager 20 years before I was born. Do I mock him?

 

[wilf9]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

I hate the ****** songs and never join in when I hear them but I disagree with what you say about chucking people out. It's a free speech issue and I don't think we should be going down a route where people are thrown out for a chant that does not break the law (i.e. it isn't inciting racial hatred etc.).

Putting aside the issue regarding the the fact the chants are in extremely poor taste, they could well be conceived as being against the law. They are made to illicit a response from the United fans so, technically, the police could claim the chants are 'inticing' the United fans to riot. You may consider this far fetched, but it would stand up in court and, in my opinion, anyone found to be making these chants should be dealt with extremely harshly.

I don't give a fuck what argument you come up with for them, they are all seriously flawed.

1 - The chants have been around for years - So what? To stop making them would be classed as progress, there are many things that were acceptable/prevelant 30 years ago that would not be tolerated now, liek throwing bananas at black players.

2 - It happened before most of us were born/had memories of the events - So why make the chants? If it was SO long ago that it has no meaning or emotional resonance for you then why chant it? If it's just to illicit a response then there are better ways of doing this than belittling the memories of the victims of a disaster that you've already admitted you have no particular feelings towards. Have some respect and human decency.

3 - I don't chant it because of the actually disaster but because of the United reaction to the disaster, i.e. treatment of the families/players involved - Whereas I might well agree with the sentiments, I too feel that United have 'milked' the disaster to feather their own beds and treated those closely involved in it with, at best, contempt, I fail to see why we should chant about it. Essentially what you're doing is saying "Haha, you treated dead people and their families with contempt, so here's a little ditty we wrote that shows them just as much contempt to prove how superior we are" surely even the most neanderthal of City fans can see the inherant double standards of this?

Leave United and their fans to bleat along about M*nich, we deal with it far better when we are respectfully silent. The World (and many, many United fans) know deep down how poorly the club treated those involved, and how they've used it as a cash cow for half a century, take the moral high ground.

Fine, I accept all the above but it doesn't really address the question of why people get so upset about it and why some City fans continually bang on about how bad it is. By having such a tender reaction to it and then resisting it and petitioning against it continually you are highlighting a non-issue and doing the club more harm than the people who actually chant about it. I just don't accept that a healthy adult mind living in the year 2009 should get genuinely upset by the singing of such a childish and puerile song.

I don't get upset about it. If some idiot wants to sing it, then let them sing it. My problem is that it gets the club a reputation. Which quite frankly isn't deserved. On top of that, I get associated with this reputation, which I do get annoyed about.

 

[el blue]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

Fine, I accept all the above but it doesn't really address the question of why people get so upset about it and why some City fans continually bang on about how bad it is. By having such a tender reaction to it and then resisting it and petitioning against it continually you are highlighting a non-issue and doing the club more harm than the people who actually chant about it. I just don't accept that a healthy adult mind living in the year 2009 should get genuinely upset by the singing of such a childish and puerile song.

Whether you accept the fact a grown male can get upset by the chants or not isn't important, what is important is that, on both sides of the fence, there are fans that do. City fans get upset becasue of the bad light it reflects on the club and, by association, on them. United fans get upset because, as City fans would if the scenario was reversed, it's taking the piss out of players who died whilst representing the club we the fans love.

What you're doing is saying that those who react to the chants are actually the ones causing the problem, that's like blaming the person who retaliates in a fight for the whole incident. Yes, perhaps they shouldn't retaliate but, had the first punch not been thrown then there would have been nothing to retaliate to.

Describing the chants as a "non-issue" is simply your opinion and it is the basis for your entire argument, the fact that many don't see it as such negates the rest of your point.

Again you make good points, but (again this is simply my opinion) surely a homophobic chant about John O'Shea taking it up the arse is more offensive and causes more harm to the gay community than a munich chant could ever cause anyone. If were going to be sanctimonious about munich we should take the same line with everything.. and then you have to ask yourself what sort of sanitised experience you'd be left with.

 

[mcfcant]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

this site makes me laugh, just been issued a warning for saying i dont care about an ex city player who played 30 years before i was born. ooops sorry!!

i suppose that makes me a sad fan hey.

Mercer was manager 20 years before I was born. Do I mock him?

did i say you did? i dont care about him neither, if i boast about joe mercer id get laughed at, what happened before my lifetime i dnt care about. where did i mock frank swift? for saying i dont care about him? fuckinell im sorry.

 

[Matty]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

Again you make good points, but (again this is simply my opinion) surely a homophobic chant about John O'Shea taking it up the arse is more offensive and causes more harm to the gay community than a ****** chant could ever cause anyone. If were going to be sanctimonious about ****** we should take the same line with everything.. and then you have to ask yourself what sort of sanitised experience you'd be left with.

There are many things said at football that, when looked at out of context, would seem far harsher than they actually are. The comments regarding O'Shea and his supposed sexual orientation differ from M*nich because, firstly they are false, and secondly they are said with a certain amount of jest involved. The m*nich comments aren't said with any ounce of good humour and can be directly related to an actual event. Also, and this relates slightly to your own point, the media don't print stories for the World to see about fans mocking who O'Shea likes to sleep with, they make a HUGE deal about M*nich chants (as the build up to last years derby will contest). Perhaps they shouldn't but, as long as it sells papers to United fans and the supposedly moral' element of society, they will do, we as City fans have no control over that. What we DO have control over (again, as demonstrated last year) is whether the chants occur in the first place. Don't chant and there's no ammunition, and the issue goes away.

 

[Glasgow Man City]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

Again you make good points, but (again this is simply my opinion) surely a homophobic chant about John O'Shea taking it up the arse is more offensive and causes more harm to the gay community than a ****** chant could ever cause anyone. If were going to be sanctimonious about ****** we should take the same line with everything.. and then you have to ask yourself what sort of sanitised experience you'd be left with.

This is very true, yesterday had chants about a player being gay, a player being ugly, a player being incestuous(sp?) a players wife bing shagged by most of the City end and being a slut and also said player being told the child his wife is currently pregnant with is not his. This along with a couple of M****h chants.

Every single one of these chants is offensive to someone in some way. Do the people complaining about the M****h chants think all these songs should be banned, or where do you draw the line?

 

[cheltenham_blue]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

I was also a victim of having my ticket taken off me(well nearly).It was nothing to do with singing.One of those fucking knob stewards outside the turnstiles pushed into me so i shoved the fucker back & told him to keep the fuck off me & instanly i was surrounded by a few meathead stewards trying to pull me away from the turnstiles & while they were doing so one of the fuckers was trying to pull my ticket out of my hand & there was no way in this world i was letting go of it,my mate was trying to get me back to the turnstiles & i eventually got free to get in the ground.They have a reputation for this,one of the lads off our supporters coach got his ticket taken off him a couple of years ago and he begged them to give it him back but did they fuck.When they wear their stewards coat it is like a penis extension to them,fuckers are probably only on £10 a day.Bastards!!!

 

[Cheltblue]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

this site makes me laugh, just been issued a warning for saying i dont care about an ex city player who played 30 years before i was born. ooops sorry!!

i suppose that makes me a sad fan hey.

Mercer was manager 20 years before I was born. Do I mock him?

did i say you did? i dont care about him neither, if i boast about joe mercer id get laughed at, what happened before my lifetime i dnt care about. where did i mock frank swift? for saying i dont care about him? fuckinell im sorry.

Do you chant the m***** song? If so why?

If not, why spend so much time shouting about something you apparently care f*ck all about?

 

[BufordUSABlue]

Re: A big Thanks to the Dicks Singing M****h -

I hate the ****** songs and never join in when I hear them but I disagree with what you say about chucking people out. It's a free speech issue and I don't think we should be going down a route where people are thrown out for a chant that does not break the law (i.e. it isn't inciting racial hatred etc.).

Putting aside the issue regarding the the fact the chants are in extremely poor taste, they could well be conceived as being against the law. They are made to illicit a response from the United fans so, technically, the police could claim the chants are 'inticing' the United fans to riot. You may consider this far fetched, but it would stand up in court and, in my opinion, anyone found to be making these chants should be dealt with extremely harshly.

I don't give a fuck what argument you come up with for them, they are all seriously flawed.

1 - The chants have been around for years - So what? To stop making them would be classed as progress, there are many things that were acceptable/prevelant 30 years ago that would not be tolerated now, liek throwing bananas at black players.

2 - It happened before most of us were born/had memories of the events - So why make the chants? If it was SO long ago that it has no meaning or emotional resonance for you then why chant it? If it's just to illicit a response then there are better ways of doing this than belittling the memories of the victims of a disaster that you've already admitted you have no particular feelings towards. Have some respect and human decency.

3 - I don't chant it because of the actually disaster but because of the United reaction to the disaster, i.e. treatment of the families/players involved - Whereas I might well agree with the sentiments, I too feel that United have 'milked' the disaster to feather their own beds and treated those closely involved in it with, at best, contempt, I fail to see why we should chant about it. Essentially what you're doing is saying "Haha, you treated dead people and their families with contempt, so here's a little ditty we wrote that shows them just as much contempt to prove how superior we are" surely even the most neanderthal of City fans can see the inherant double standards of this?

Leave United and their fans to bleat along about M*nich, we deal with it far better when we are respectfully silent. The World (and many, many United fans) know deep down how poorly the club treated those involved, and how they've used it as a cash cow for half a century, take the moral high ground.

THIS............well said Matty!!
The "I didnt know them" "I wasnt born" "I am too young to remember" brigade are clearly delusional and if they feel this way, simply keep quiet and this sh*te will one day go away. God forbid!
Using these analogies, then people "too young" to remember the likes of Colin 'The King' Bell, Francis Lee-one-pen, Mike 'I hate Reds' Doyle, Mike 'Buzzer' Summerbee, Alan 'steady as a rock' Oakes, Tony 'Sir' Book (to name but a few of our heroes from days past) and therefore the neanderthals dont give a fook about them......because i certainly do and will always cherish their memories....I am "too young" myself to remember Frank Swift as a player for us, but all i hear is grea things about him and YES we should respect him and any other person who's lives were tragically lost !!!

Get a grip on reality you people, otherwise i agree with others, go do one and follow some other poor unfortunate team..........as we certainly dont need or want the likes of you!!!