Grenfell Tower block disaster

[Fame Monster]

Some of the newspapers have been their knobbish selves, but the report isn't seeking to blame the individual firefighters on the ground (indeed it praises their "heroics and bravery"). It's pointing out a policy flaw in the higher chain of command, and I think it's only positive that we can learn these lessons so the same mistakes are never made again.

Agree 100%.

If we're going to have these inquiries, we can't shy away from blaming firefighters, the police, politicians or anyone else involved in public service when they are to blame. Some of our most important inquiries (thinking of the brilliant Macpherson Report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence) have brought about enormous improvements in public safety and the way our emergency services and justice system operates, and that's by asking difficult questions and sometimes coming to difficult conclusions.

I'm no expert in fire safety but presumably the guy who led the inquiry consulted such experts and seems to have concluded that 'stay put' was terrible advice in the circumstances. That needs to be said so that the same advice isn't given next time in the same circumstances, and hopefully we might be able to save the lives of a few more people.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Agree 100%.

If we're going to have these inquiries, we can't shy away from blaming firefighters, the police, politicians or anyone else involved in public service when they are to blame. Some of our most important inquiries (thinking of the brilliant Macpherson Report into the murder of Stephen Lawrence) have brought about enormous improvements in public safety and the way our emergency services and justice system operates, and that's by asking difficult questions and sometimes coming to difficult conclusions.

I'm no expert in fire safety but presumably the guy who led the inquiry consulted such experts and seems to have concluded that 'stay put' was terrible advice in the circumstances. That needs to be said so that the same advice isn't given next time in the same circumstances, and hopefully we might be able to save the lives of a few more people.

Stay put should be good proper advice - it was the shitty cladding that turned Grenfell into Towering Inferno. Without cladding that would have been compartmentalised into the one flat possibly one room where it started surely? Going out into a hallway with zero - and I mean zero - visibility, hoses laid all over the place, water on the floor and running down walls and stairwells using stairs you may never have actually been on before trying to get past fire fighters coming the other way - that on the face of it seems bad advice.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

It's infuriating how the report found the main cause of the fire to be crappy cladding on the side of the building yet it doesn't seem to be the main point of the discussion.
I can't imagine how the families of victims must feel

 

[bluethrunthru]

It's infuriating how the report found the main cause of the fire to be crappy cladding on the side of the building yet it doesn't seem to be the main point of the discussion.
I can't imagine how the families of victims must feel

Its partly because its being done and released in stages - this was the first one dealing with the emergency response. The causes and then recommendations have yet to be debated and reported upon.

The cynic in me thinks that its all being set up to blame "the process" - on no account can the closing of fire stations, sacking of firemen and cutting the number of pumps by Johnson when he was mayor be implicated - on no account can the Tory run council - sat on hundreds of millions of reserves yet deciding not to install sprinklers for the odd hundred grand whilst giving CT rebates to the wealthy home owners in the borough on no account can the Govts planning rules be implicated no its going to be the architects, the builders and testing people who designed, installed and tested the cladding who all cut corners - it won't be individual firemen it will be advice, the process and probably by then handily retired Chief Fire Officer all found wanting.

Any government worth its salt sets up an enquiry and establishes its scope so that the likelihood is that its conclusions will be what it wanted all along.

 

[urban genie]

Bit of a piss take this knob even coming on for interview.

He had 7 letters sent to him as housing minister telling him grenfell and others were safety risks prior to the disaster and he ignored them all, he should be in jail for involuntary manslaughter as it is.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Nowt. There's only one reason Abbott gets so much vitriol aimed at her though imo.

This thread should've been full of people condemning him. Yet it isn't. Wonder why

Its because its all on the General Election thread....

 

[Fame Monster]

Reading up on the main things that went wrong, it seems that the BBA (the people who certificate products to be used in construction) pretty much rely on the word of the product manufacturers as to whether a product is safe or not rather than thoroughly testing every product themselves.

That creates a situation where, for reasons of profit, the product manufacturers try and blag that something is safe by failing to share their own test results (or deliberately sending them to the wrong people/departments) with the BBA and other authorities.

That is a dreadful system of regulation, and we should know that no company can be trusted with it, especially on the back of all the cheating being done by Volkswagen and almost every other carmaker.

On top of that, we have building regulations that are unbelievably vague and poorly written so no-one within the industry knew whether something needed to be A-rated or B-rated (in terms of reaction to fire) for it to be used in buildings above 18M. As it happened, we actually had a material that was E-rated on the building and partly made out of wax! Them poor fuckers in the tower didn't stand a chance and the directors of the company who made these panels and failed to recall them need to be the first people held to account before many others.

 

[B\connellblue]

When you look back at those images of the building ablaze, and the charred shell left behind, it's staggering that the death toll was limited to 72. And heartbreaking that some of those 72 died needlessly due to failings in the fire service.

The UK fire service would have SOGS ( standard operational guidlines ) for all sorts of emergencys. These would be drawn up by the chief fire officers and also referencing best international practice. I would imagine these would have been followed by the incident commander. You couldn't expect every building in London to have a specific pre fire plan. The cladding changed how this fire developed and spread.

 

[jimharri]

The UK fire service would have SOGS ( standard operational guidlines ) for all sorts of emergencys. These would be drawn up by the chief fire officers and also referencing best international practice. I would imagine these would have been followed by the incident commander. You couldn't expect every building in London to have a specific pre fire plan. The cladding changed how this fire developed and spread.

https://www.thejournal.ie/grenfell-tower-inquiry-report-2019-4870321-Oct2019/

'Serious shortcomings' in response of fire service likely led to more deaths. "Systemic failures" also mentioned. Which is what I said. I never said anything about fire plans for specific buildings, or anything about what caused the fire.

 

[B\connellblue]

https://www.thejournal.ie/grenfell-tower-inquiry-report-2019-4870321-Oct2019/

'Serious shortcomings' in response of fire service likely led to more deaths. "Systemic failures" also mentioned. Which is what I said. I never said anything about fire plans for specific buildings, or anything about what caused the fire.

There would be whats called a PDA(Pre determined attendance) for a fire to a high rise building. Initial turnout Possibly 3 pumps and an aerial platform, Some of the guys who work in the fire service on here would know. The incident commander would then decide what additional resources he needed. A systemic failure is just a nice way of saying " we'll skimp on the fire brigade budget and then hope nothing comes back to bite us on the arse". Fighting fires in high rise is no simple task without the added problems of it being wrapped in accelerant material. Doubt if Sir Martin Moore-Bick ever risked his life to save anyone or anything.