Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

[Blue Punter]

I was only 17 at the time. As a neutral, I didnt enjoy the experience - which is why,fortunately, I turned down the chance to go the following year.................

17 at the time you say ??

Hmmmmm? Posted after the FA Cup win in 2011

Im 52yrs old. I was at the '81 Final stood next to an old boy of 8oyrs bedecked in City memorabelia who cried when we lost. He made me promise I'd think of him when we won it again - never knew his name.
I thought of him at the final whistle...................and couldnt keep the tears in. Rest easy now mate.

Great spot "Sky Blue".

 

[Castiel]

But nobody is going to convince me that a large contingent of fans didn't travel to that match without a ticket, or outrageously drunk, or for the express purpose of causing trouble - and that created the conditions for this disaster to happen. I see that happening today all the time. Regardless of what reports claim, if people with no business being there weren't there, this would not have happened.

Well thank goodness we have clear-sighted people like you who can see through cynical government cover-ups and whitewashes such as the Taylor Report and the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which have duped the vast majority of people, including the victims' families.

By the way - just in case your obvious lack of brain cells prevents you from seeing it, I was being sarcastic. You're an utter arsehole of the highest order for coming out with something like that, against all the documented evidence to the contrary. Sorry if that's harsh but I really don't know what else to say.

Stop getting so emotional and rude and understand what I'm saying. All sides are at fault. There is no need to be one of these zealots who attack anyone not on board with the crusade. Believing that the police were completely at fault and the fans contributed nothing to this catastrophe is just wilful ignorance. You can say they're more to blame, but to vindicate the fans at the expense of the police is almost as bad as what the authorities did in blaming the fans in the first place. The licencing authority, the stadium authority, all of them are responsible to varying degrees.

In a civilised, sophisticated society we have mechanisms and institutions in place to manage this. This event was not unexpected and its location would have been known for some time. Moreover there had been, as has been alluded to, issues at this venue in previous years. It is the job of those institutions, (whose controlling minds are well paid from public funds and who enjoy greater powers than other citizens) to ensure that all reasonable steps are taken to ensure that the event passes off safely.

The fact that things went wrong should be expected, rather than seen as some intervening, wholly unpredictable, uncontrollable force. The fact that SYP failed to deal with it is the issue here, not what manifested on the day.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The police are absolutely accountable for this, and what they did to avoid that responsibility just makes it much worse. The fan's actions do not vindicate them in any whatsoever. But neither does the police's failure vindicate the irresponsible fans. This logic can't be applied to one side and not the other.

 

[Castiel]

I am the one of the polices biggest supporters however you are spot on mate.
The only people to blame for this are the police-Not so much the constables on the ground,I believe they tried there hardest to help but moreso the fucking senior ranks in the control room etc who conspired to cover this up. Telling police officers to change there statements etc is simply criminal.
All they had to do was block the tunnel leading to the 2 central pens in the leppings lane yet they didn't.
We all get drunk at football matches.Good policing,and all seater stadia prevent things like this happening again.

I should add that I'm distinguishing between police on the ground. The actions of the 'senior ranks', was just criminal.

 

[shackattack]

south yorkshire police must accept the responsibility for the safety of the supporters along with SWFC - the 2 parties were at loggerheads over the capacity for the stadium. remember that for 6 yrs hillsborough was denied prestigious games for safety reasons. overlooked at times is the involvement of the west midlands police force. stanley beechey of the west midlands serious crime squad was seconded to the Hillsborough inquests by West Midlands Police, despite the fact he was suspended at the time, pending an investigation into the multiple nefarious activities of the Serious Crimes Squad (including framing people for crimes they had not committed). In January 1989, some three months before the Hillsborough Disaster, , Clare Short MP was calling in the House of Commons for an inquiry into the alleged malpractices of the West Midlands Police. She stated: No solicitor in Birmingham would say anything other than that the [West Midlands Police] serious crime squad is fundamentally dishonest. The men in the squad decide who are guilty and frame them. most if not all of them have now retired from the force !!

 

[DTKOAG]

Was it correct that the safety certificate was out of date also ?

 

[shackattack]

the stadium did not have a valid safety certificate - the one they had did not take into account the alterations in 81 and 85 to the ground. maybe the FA can answer why they therefore deemed it a suitable venue i guess.

Sheffield Wednesday applied to host the semi-final, which 54,000 people attended, and semi-finals in 1981, 1987 and 1988, despite the club's safety certificate for Hillsborough not having been updated since 1979.

There was a serious crush in 1981 on the Leppings Lane terrace in which 38 people were injured. The police moved supporters out, they told the club's then chairman, Bert McGee, to avoid "a real chance of fatalities". Shockingly, the panel found in the minutes of a post-match meeting, McGee replied: "Bollocks – no one would have been killed."

Scraton then described how changes to the ground, principally building metal fences running up the Leppings Lane terrace to divide it into separate pens, made "a demonstrably unsafe terrace dangerous."

There were crushes and problems with the old, inadequate turnstiles in 1987 and 1988, after which one supporter wrote to the FA saying the Leppings Lane terrace "will always be a death trap".

Nevertheless, the FA invited Sheffield Wednesday to host the semi-final in 1989, without asking any questions about ground safety, and the club eagerly applied to do so.

 

[squirtyflower]

But nobody is going to convince me that a large contingent of fans didn't travel to that match without a ticket, or outrageously drunk, or for the express purpose of causing trouble - and that created the conditions for this disaster to happen. I see that happening today all the time. Regardless of what reports claim, if people with no business being there weren't there, this would not have happened.

Well thank goodness we have clear-sighted people like you who can see through cynical government cover-ups and whitewashes such as the Taylor Report and the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which have duped the vast majority of people, including the victims' families.

By the way - just in case your obvious lack of brain cells prevents you from seeing it, I was being sarcastic. You're an utter arsehole of the highest order for coming out with something like that, against all the documented evidence to the contrary. Sorry if that's harsh but I really don't know what else to say.

Stop getting so emotional and rude and understand what I'm saying. All sides are at fault. There is no need to be one of these zealots who attack anyone not on board with the crusade. Believing that the police were completely at fault and the fans contributed nothing to this catastrophe is just wilful ignorance. You can say they're more to blame, but to vindicate the fans at the expense of the police is almost as bad as what the authorities did in blaming the fans in the first place. The licencing authority, the stadium authority, all of them are responsible to varying degrees.

In a civilised, sophisticated society we have mechanisms and institutions in place to manage this. This event was not unexpected and its location would have been known for some time. Moreover there had been, as has been alluded to, issues at this venue in previous years. It is the job of those institutions, (whose controlling minds are well paid from public funds and who enjoy greater powers than other citizens) to ensure that all reasonable steps are taken to ensure that the event passes off safely.

The fact that things went wrong should be expected, rather than seen as some intervening, wholly unpredictable, uncontrollable force. The fact that SYP failed to deal with it is the issue here, not what manifested on the day.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The police are absolutely accountable for this, and what they did to avoid that responsibility just makes it much worse. The fan's actions do not vindicate them in any whatsoever. But neither does the police's failure vindicate the irresponsible fans. This logic can't be applied to one side and not the other.

you're not 'classy' anymore

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

But nobody is going to convince me that a large contingent of fans didn't travel to that match without a ticket, or outrageously drunk, or for the express purpose of causing trouble - and that created the conditions for this disaster to happen. I see that happening today all the time. Regardless of what reports claim, if people with no business being there weren't there, this would not have happened.

Well thank goodness we have clear-sighted people like you who can see through cynical government cover-ups and whitewashes such as the Taylor Report and the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which have duped the vast majority of people, including the victims' families.

By the way - just in case your obvious lack of brain cells prevents you from seeing it, I was being sarcastic. You're an utter arsehole of the highest order for coming out with something like that, against all the documented evidence to the contrary. Sorry if that's harsh but I really don't know what else to say.

Stop getting so emotional and rude and understand what I'm saying. All sides are at fault. There is no need to be one of these zealots who attack anyone not on board with the crusade. Believing that the police were completely at fault and the fans contributed nothing to this catastrophe is just wilful ignorance.

When you're in a hole, it's good advice to stop digging. What I quoted of your post left little room for misunderstanding in my view. Hence my reaction.

I do agree with you that, as is typical in many disasters, there was a combination of events with some playing a greater part than others. But all the fans contributed to it was their presence on the day. I don't dispute that some didn't have tickets, some were drunk and some behaved like arseholes. But that's what fans did in those days (and still do) but it has absolutely no bearing on the reasons that 96 people died that day. To try to link the two, even if implicitly as you seemed to be doing, just perpetuates the lies of The Sun.

To answer the point about the safety certificate, my understanding was it was effectively an ongoing one but hadn't been updated to take into account changes made to the ground since 1981. So for that reason it wasn't valid and SWFC have to shoulder some blame. The FA didn't bother to check the safety certificate and there are questions as to whether Hillsborough was even a suitable venue.

But the overwhelming catalyst for the deaths was the failure of Duckenfield to use the largely effective operational management plan used by his predecessor. That would have almost certainly prevented a build up outside the turnstiles. The second critical failure was not monitoring or controlling the build-up of the crowd in the central pens, particularly when Gate C was opened. Then, once events had taken their course, Duckenfield told a blatant lie to Graham Kelly, which set off the cover-up. He also failed to manage the response of the emergency services, meaning some lives which were lost might have been saved.

 

[glenowen]

Well thank goodness we have clear-sighted people like you who can see through cynical government cover-ups and whitewashes such as the Taylor Report and the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which have duped the vast majority of people, including the victims' families.

By the way - just in case your obvious lack of brain cells prevents you from seeing it, I was being sarcastic. You're an utter arsehole of the highest order for coming out with something like that, against all the documented evidence to the contrary. Sorry if that's harsh but I really don't know what else to say.

Stop getting so emotional and rude and understand what I'm saying. All sides are at fault. There is no need to be one of these zealots who attack anyone not on board with the crusade. Believing that the police were completely at fault and the fans contributed nothing to this catastrophe is just wilful ignorance.

When you're in a hole, it's good advice to stop digging. What I quoted of your post left little room for misunderstanding in my view. Hence my reaction.

I do agree with you that, as is typical in many disasters, there was a combination of events with some playing a greater part than others. But all the fans contributed to it was their presence on the day. I don't dispute that some didn't have tickets, some were drunk and some behaved like arseholes. But that's what fans did in those days (and still do) but it has absolutely no bearing on the reasons that 96 people died that day. To try to link the two, even if implicitly as you seemed to be doing, just perpetuates the lies of The Sun.

To answer the point about the safety certificate, my understanding was it was effectively an ongoing one but hadn't been updated to take into account changes made to the ground since 1981. So for that reason it wasn't valid and SWFC have to shoulder some blame. The FA didn't bother to check the safety certificate and there are questions as to whether Hillsborough was even a suitable venue.

But the overwhelming catalyst for the deaths was the failure of Duckenfield to use the largely effective operational management plan used by his predecessor. That would have almost certainly prevented a build up outside the turnstiles. The second critical failure was not monitoring or controlling the build-up of the crowd in the central pens, particularly when Gate C was opened. Then, once events had taken their course, Duckenfield told a blatant lie to Graham Kelly, which set off the cover-up. He also failed to manage the response of the emergency services, meaning some lives which were lost might have been saved.

According to Castiel, anyone who sympathises with the Hillsborough families in their quest for the truth is a "zealot" on a "crusade". How much evidence do these morons need before they accept that it was the police were responsible and that it is not the first time they have been guilty of lies and cover-ups - Stephen Lawrence, Birmingham Six etc.

Brilliant post, Prestwich Blue.

 

[shackattack]

Stop getting so emotional and rude and understand what I'm saying. All sides are at fault. There is no need to be one of these zealots who attack anyone not on board with the crusade. Believing that the police were completely at fault and the fans contributed nothing to this catastrophe is just wilful ignorance.

When you're in a hole, it's good advice to stop digging. What I quoted of your post left little room for misunderstanding in my view. Hence my reaction.

I do agree with you that, as is typical in many disasters, there was a combination of events with some playing a greater part than others. But all the fans contributed to it was their presence on the day. I don't dispute that some didn't have tickets, some were drunk and some behaved like arseholes. But that's what fans did in those days (and still do) but it has absolutely no bearing on the reasons that 96 people died that day. To try to link the two, even if implicitly as you seemed to be doing, just perpetuates the lies of The Sun.

To answer the point about the safety certificate, my understanding was it was effectively an ongoing one but hadn't been updated to take into account changes made to the ground since 1981. So for that reason it wasn't valid and SWFC have to shoulder some blame. The FA didn't bother to check the safety certificate and there are questions as to whether Hillsborough was even a suitable venue.

But the overwhelming catalyst for the deaths was the failure of Duckenfield to use the largely effective operational management plan used by his predecessor. That would have almost certainly prevented a build up outside the turnstiles. The second critical failure was not monitoring or controlling the build-up of the crowd in the central pens, particularly when Gate C was opened. Then, once events had taken their course, Duckenfield told a blatant lie to Graham Kelly, which set off the cover-up. He also failed to manage the response of the emergency services, meaning some lives which were lost might have been saved.

According to Castiel, anyone who sympathises with the Hillsborough families in their quest for the truth is a "zealot" on a "crusade". How much evidence do these morons need before they accept that it was the police were responsible and that it is not the first time they have been guilty of lies and cover-ups - Stephen Lawrence, Birmingham Six etc.

Brilliant post, Prestwich Blue.

and strangely enough a certain norman bettison was also heavily involved in both the hillsborough and stephen lawrence inquiries.