Hillsborough verdicts reached

Manx Blue said:
Well before I do, you give me the evidence that shows SYP and SWFC got the numbers allowing spectators into the other three sides of Hillsborough absolutely spot on, but so appallingly incorrect for the Leppings Lane Paddock?
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Manx Blue - with that comment I'm afraid you have shown that you have done absolutely no research into the Hillsborough disaster and I'd respectfully ask you to think before posting. Your views are precisely what the families have been fighting against and today after 27 years they finally have the truth.
Again please read page 17 http://hfdinfo.com/digital/ and consider citykev's very valid question to you.
 
Manx Blue said:
Well before I do, you give me the evidence that shows SYP and SWFC got the numbers allowing spectators into the other three sides of Hillsborough absolutely spot on, but so appallingly incorrect for the Leppings Lane Paddock?
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I'm not the one making any claims about details on the day that I actually know fuck all about. You said in your first post that you weren't trolling. Your second post shows that you clearly are and are amongst the numerous people on this thread who don't realise that today is not the day for it.
 
It's a disgrace that it's taken 27 years to get to this point. I have the utmost repect for the families & other people who have campaigned to get past the establishment lies. The cover up is an absolute scandal.
 
Manx Blue said:
I've been asking myself this question over the last hour or so, and I'm going to raise this not to be inflammatory or be a troll but to be objective...is turning up without tickets not "a behaviour"
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Where is there any evidence that fans turned up without tickets or that those fans illegally gained entrance to the ground?

There is none, other than an assumption that people probably did. Not only is there nothing solid to support that view but the hard evidence in the Taylor Report about numbers of fans show that the best estimates of the crowd at the time of the tragedy are completely consistent with the number of tickets issued for that part of the stadium. In other words, the opening of Gate C was not an opportunity for thousands or even hundreds of ticketless fans to stream in. The Leppings Lane terrace held the number of people it should have done but too many were in the central pens and too few were in the others.

It is quite frightening after all this time and the sheer weight of documentary evidence available that people still find it hard to believe that the behaviour of the fans was not a contributing factor to the tragic events of the day.

From the first minutes after the tragedy, when people were still dying, once Duckenfield lied to Graham Kelly about the opening of Gate C, a cover up was deliberately put in place and maintained.

The untrue narrative that the fans were responsible for the tragedy was so deeply ingrained that the police lawyers still tried to push it even during the recent inquest itself.

The Taylor Report laid the groundwork. The Hillsborough Independent Panel reinforced it. The inquest verdict proved it. The responsibility for the deaths of 96 people is shared between the South Yorkshire Police, Sheffield Wednesday and the FA in varying degrees. The only contribution made by Liverpool fans was to buy tickets and turn up.

Yet still today, the assumption of the authorities and the various police forces that are engaged in the policing of matches seems to be that fans are criminals simply because they travel to a game in order to watch it. That's the narrative we have to tackle and today's verdict partly helps in that.
 
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The events leading up to the incident can only be considered "unlawful death" at a corporate level in the generic way that Police and Football Clubs used to manage crowds. Individuals cannot be blamed for what happened - as others have said a set of events were set in motion that were bound to happen at some point. The Bradford fire fatalities and injuries occurred for similar reasons.
That said the Hillsborough cover up afterwards is a criminal act that needs criminal prosecution of the individuals concerned.
 
FanchesterCity said:
Crowd behaviour was poor in those days (and it's not that much better now) - but it was foreseeable. The procedures put into place where designed to take crowd behaviour into account, but having sailed close to the wind previously, on this occasion, it failed with catastrophic consequences.

I don't think anybody can argue that some elements on any crowd act like morons. In a crowd of a few thousand people trying to get into an end of a stadium, there will be some chanting, some trying to climb over a wall and some turning aggressive when they can't get in - perhaps a couple of hundred such people. But there will be thousands more just acting as a herd and trusting that someone somewhere is in control and that eventually, they'll be inside the stadium.

I do understand where you're coming from - because 'crowds' act a certain way and it's not always conducive to safety, but I think the crux of the question is 'did the crowds behave in any unforeseen way that contributed to the danger'.
If someone was killed at a bonfire, nobody would ask 'did the fire contribute to their deaths' - it's more about 'did the control of the fire contribute to their deaths'.
Are crowds dangerous? yes
Are racing care dangerous? yes
But when theirs an accident, you look to see if there was fault in the crown or racing car, and by 'fault' we mean something above and beyond their inherent (known) dangers.
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This is an excellent post and should answer any lingering doubts about fan liability.
 
probably not happen but be nice if we could show some love and solidarity for the Liverpool supporters tonight, maybe the 'justice for the 96' to drown out the Champions League anthem?
 
For me the point should be that even if there was evidence of ticketless fans, people jibbing in, and fans with tickets committing the cardinal sin of turning up not long before kick off because they've been enjoying a drink with their mates, how is that any different to any other fanbase for a game of this magnitude? A mate of mine has jibbed into Wembley 3 times in recent years. How many of us take the advice on our match tickets that says take up your seats 30/45/60 mins before kick-off? Not many for sure!

It's up to the police to maintain order and for that they failed miserably.
 
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