Home grown players (merged)

[FanchesterCity]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

On the day that we've signed Fernando and Bruno Zuculini, the rags have signed Luke Shaw, and Adam Lallana's having a medical at Candlepool. I think the World Cup constituted fair proof that most English players are overpriced and/or shite, but as an avenue for post FFP attack, are we leaving ourselves wide open by not bidding for English players? The rags, Liverpool and the Arse are awash with them, and I'd be willing to bet they will move heaven and earth never to miss out on the Chimps League again. With Gill established at UEFA and that other rag stooge Dyke in situ at the EPL, the most obvious curve ball they can now throw us is an insistence on, say, at least 4 home grown players starting every game. Should we not be in the market for players like Lallana, Caulker or Townsend on that basis?

The HGQ is as fucked as FFP. In no other walk of business could you be stopped from employing the best person for the job. I understand the sentiments of the FA to a degree, but furnishing the England team with decent players isn't our business.

Anyone who wants to know how fucked the English transfer system is needs to consider Andy Carrol cost Liverpool £3m less than Aguero and James Milner cost us more than Yaya or Silva.........

The world cup showed where English players and our youth coaching stands. A root and branch change is required at the youngest level. We are doing our bit with the new campus and hopefully young English talent will benefit, but forcing us to include or play lesser players just to satisfy a fucked HGQ system not of our making is just wrong.

Shaw for £30m just shows how fucked England really are when clubs are forced to pay that kind of money for a 'decent' young defender who's had 1 good season.

If I take off my sky blue specs, our academy doesn't do much for English football, it just helps us, and most likely at the expense of other clubs.
We will soon end up with a handful of super academies run by the biggest clubs, and the only players that will ever make the top flight will have to come through one of those 'top' academies. It won't be a regulation, just a prejudice that you can't be very good unless you've been through the City / United / Liverpool / Chelsea / Arsenal super academies. And in turn, kids will be striving to get places in those academies rather than settle for a great start with (say) Oldham or Preston.

We will be offering state of the art facilities and the kudos of being at City - it's fantastic for us, but probably not great for others.
Chelsea are already showing the symptoms of this in snatching up a lot of young talent and loaning them out all over. We may well end up doing something similar - 100 youth on our books, and cherry picking the top 10, then tossing aside 90% of them.

 

[bluemoondays]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

On the day that we've signed Fernando and Bruno Zuculini, the rags have signed Luke Shaw, and Adam Lallana's having a medical at Candlepool. I think the World Cup constituted fair proof that most English players are overpriced and/or shite, but as an avenue for post FFP attack, are we leaving ourselves wide open by not bidding for English players? The rags, Liverpool and the Arse are awash with them, and I'd be willing to bet they will move heaven and earth never to miss out on the Chimps League again. With Gill established at UEFA and that other rag stooge Dyke in situ at the EPL, the most obvious curve ball they can now throw us is an insistence on, say, at least 4 home grown players starting every game. Should we not be in the market for players like Lallana, Caulker or Townsend on that basis?

The HGQ is as fucked as FFP. In no other walk of business could you be stopped from employing the best person for the job. I understand the sentiments of the FA to a degree, but furnishing the England team with decent players isn't our business.

Anyone who wants to know how fucked the English transfer system is needs to consider Andy Carrol cost Liverpool £3m less than Aguero and James Milner cost us more than Yaya or Silva.........

The world cup showed where English players and our youth coaching stands. A root and branch change is required at the youngest level. We are doing our bit with the new campus and hopefully young English talent will benefit, but forcing us to include or play lesser players just to satisfy a fucked HGQ system not of our making is just wrong.

Shaw for £30m just shows how fucked England really are when clubs are forced to pay that kind of money for a 'decent' young defender who's had 1 good season.

If I take off my sky blue specs, our academy doesn't do much for English football, it just helps us, and most likely at the expense of other clubs.
We will soon end up with a handful of super academies run by the biggest clubs, and the only players that will ever make the top flight will have to come through one of those 'top' academies. It won't be a regulation, just a prejudice that you can't be very good unless you've been through the City / United / Liverpool / Chelsea / Arsenal super academies. And in turn, kids will be striving to get places in those academies rather than settle for a great start with (say) Oldham or Preston.

We will be offering state of the art facilities and the kudos of being at City - it's fantastic for us, but probably not great for others.
Chelsea are already showing the symptoms of this in snatching up a lot of young talent and loaning them out all over. We may well end up doing something similar - 100 youth on our books, and cherry picking the top 10, then tossing aside 90% of them.

Unfortunately that's the way it goes at ALL the bigger clubs and to a lesser degree even the smaller ones. The big clubs hoover up the best youth talent and they know that <5% will make it to the 1st team, probably another 10-20% will become good enough to sell on, the remainder end up having terminated contracts and if they are lucky they'll get picked up by a lower league team. If not, they'll end up playing part-time football and working a shift in some factory.

It's going to be no difference at City as it is a Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Rags etc

 

[FanchesterCity]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

The HGQ is as fucked as FFP. In no other walk of business could you be stopped from employing the best person for the job. I understand the sentiments of the FA to a degree, but furnishing the England team with decent players isn't our business.

Anyone who wants to know how fucked the English transfer system is needs to consider Andy Carrol cost Liverpool £3m less than Aguero and James Milner cost us more than Yaya or Silva.........

The world cup showed where English players and our youth coaching stands. A root and branch change is required at the youngest level. We are doing our bit with the new campus and hopefully young English talent will benefit, but forcing us to include or play lesser players just to satisfy a fucked HGQ system not of our making is just wrong.

Shaw for £30m just shows how fucked England really are when clubs are forced to pay that kind of money for a 'decent' young defender who's had 1 good season.

If I take off my sky blue specs, our academy doesn't do much for English football, it just helps us, and most likely at the expense of other clubs.
We will soon end up with a handful of super academies run by the biggest clubs, and the only players that will ever make the top flight will have to come through one of those 'top' academies. It won't be a regulation, just a prejudice that you can't be very good unless you've been through the City / United / Liverpool / Chelsea / Arsenal super academies. And in turn, kids will be striving to get places in those academies rather than settle for a great start with (say) Oldham or Preston.

We will be offering state of the art facilities and the kudos of being at City - it's fantastic for us, but probably not great for others.
Chelsea are already showing the symptoms of this in snatching up a lot of young talent and loaning them out all over. We may well end up doing something similar - 100 youth on our books, and cherry picking the top 10, then tossing aside 90% of them.

Unfortunately that's the way it goes at ALL the bigger clubs and to a lesser degree even the smaller ones. The big clubs hoover up the best youth talent and they know that <5% will make it to the 1st team, probably another 10-20% will become good enough to sell on, the remainder end up having terminated contracts and if they are lucky they'll get picked up by a lower league team. If not, they'll end up playing part-time football and working a shift in some factory.

It's going to be no difference at City as it is a Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Rags etc

Aye, all that's changed is that we now have enough money to compete.
The media have lauded Barca's academy as though it's sprinkled with magic dust. It's huge! and they spent a fortune building it.

 

[Mr. Aguia]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

On the day that we've signed Fernando and Bruno Zuculini, the rags have signed Luke Shaw, and Adam Lallana's having a medical at Candlepool. I think the World Cup constituted fair proof that most English players are overpriced and/or shite, but as an avenue for post FFP attack, are we leaving ourselves wide open by not bidding for English players? The rags, Liverpool and the Arse are awash with them, and I'd be willing to bet they will move heaven and earth never to miss out on the Chimps League again. With Gill established at UEFA and that other rag stooge Dyke in situ at the EPL, the most obvious curve ball they can now throw us is an insistence on, say, at least 4 home grown players starting every game. Should we not be in the market for players like Lallana, Caulker or Townsend on that basis?

The HGQ is as fucked as FFP. In no other walk of business could you be stopped from employing the best person for the job. I understand the sentiments of the FA to a degree, but furnishing the England team with decent players isn't our business.

Anyone who wants to know how fucked the English transfer system is needs to consider Andy Carrol cost Liverpool £3m less than Aguero and James Milner cost us more than Yaya or Silva.........

The world cup showed where English players and our youth coaching stands. A root and branch change is required at the youngest level. We are doing our bit with the new campus and hopefully young English talent will benefit, but forcing us to include or play lesser players just to satisfy a fucked HGQ system not of our making is just wrong.

Shaw for £30m just shows how fucked England really are when clubs are forced to pay that kind of money for a 'decent' young defender who's had 1 good season.

If I take off my sky blue specs, our academy doesn't do much for English football, it just helps us, and most likely at the expense of other clubs.
We will soon end up with a handful of super academies run by the biggest clubs, and the only players that will ever make the top flight will have to come through one of those 'top' academies. It won't be a regulation, just a prejudice that you can't be very good unless you've been through the City / United / Liverpool / Chelsea / Arsenal super academies. And in turn, kids will be striving to get places in those academies rather than settle for a great start with (say) Oldham or Preston.

We will be offering state of the art facilities and the kudos of being at City - it's fantastic for us, but probably not great for others.
Chelsea are already showing the symptoms of this in snatching up a lot of young talent and loaning them out all over. We may well end up doing something similar - 100 youth on our books, and cherry picking the top 10, then tossing aside 90% of them.

I don't know if I agree with that. Crew and Southampton have had a long history of developing young talent and that's not going to change because of what the top 5 of the EPl are doing. They obviously have a good system in place, kids are going to want to go there to be developed because of their track record and it's easier for them to do so because they aren't competing for the PL, UCL, etc.. trophies. It was much easier for our club to develop young talent when we were mediocre. Since we have been a top club it's been harder to do so. Hopefully with the changes in the academy and the coaches we now have and the relationships we are building with other clubs to loan them out we'll have more luck.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

I'm curious, where's this long history of producing talent?

Southampton have in recent years produced:

Theo Walcott
Gareth Bale
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Adam Lallana
Wayne Bridge
Luke Shaw

Now, that's not a bad list, but it's not earth shattering either. Every now and then a club has a spate of great talent - just like United did with their golden generation, and at THAT time, everybody harped on about how good United's youth system was... then it dried up. We had the same for a while, a batch of great lads coming through like David White and Paul Lake and even before that, we were considered a decent producer of young lads, but it dried up too (not completely, but in comparison with our youth hey day).

With Crewe, the picture is definitely clearer - they did have a quite impressive record of young lads who went through them, but still, quite a few of them were actually taken up by other bigger clubs first, then dropped and sent off or transferred to Crewe. It wasn't like Crewe 'found' them.

I take your point that our super academy isn't going to ruin football and other academies will still exist, but surely if ours is to work, it's going to be capturing more talent from somewhere - we aren't going to develop players from magic dust. Those players we'll grab would have been going elsewhere until we diverted them to us. But say 40 years ago, the facilities difference (for young lads) between Man City and Oldham Athletic would be fairly minimal, the gap now is huge - since PL youth are getting all the trappings and facilities of PL stars (which might be part of our national youth problem!).

 

[Dribble]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

I'm curious, where's this long history of producing talent?

Southampton have in recent years produced:

Theo Walcott
Gareth Bale
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Adam Lallana
Wayne Bridge
Luke Shaw

Now, that's not a bad list, but it's not earth shattering either. Every now and then a club has a spate of great talent - just like United did with their golden generation, and at THAT time, everybody harped on about how good United's youth system was... then it dried up. We had the same for a while, a batch of great lads coming through like David White and Paul Lake and even before that, we were considered a decent producer of young lads, but it dried up too (not completely, but in comparison with our youth hey day).

With Crewe, the picture is definitely clearer - they did have a quite impressive record of young lads who went through them, but still, quite a few of them were actually taken up by other bigger clubs first, then dropped and sent off or transferred to Crewe. It wasn't like Crewe 'found' them.

I take your point that our super academy isn't going to ruin football and other academies will still exist, but surely if ours is to work, it's going to be capturing more talent from somewhere - we aren't going to develop players from magic dust. Those players we'll grab would have been going elsewhere until we diverted them to us. But say 40 years ago, the facilities difference (for young lads) between Man City and Oldham Athletic would be fairly minimal, the gap now is huge - since PL youth are getting all the trappings and facilities of PL stars (which might be part of our national youth problem!).

That list may not be earth shattering, but it's not shit either considering it contains the most expensive player in the world. I don't think there's one magic bullet that can transform an academy overnight, I believe that a holistic ethos needs to be created that runs like a river throughout the club in question and that ethos needs to be based on skill and tactics from the very earliest ages.

During this World Cup, its been sobering to see how comfortable many of the players are from footballing countries considered below England in the FIFA rankings. I agree wholeheartedly with Vieira's assertions that in England winning at youth level seems to be more important than skill and tactics and there's a lot to be said for that.

The thing that has stood out for most during this World Cup is that teams are trying to win to progress rather than not to lose which is great to see. Seeing the ball being played out from the back and defenders being comfortable enough to bring it forward and develop play from there has also been another stand out element of this World Cup.

In youth football a ruling was recently brought in that when a goal keeper has the ball, the opposition team has to stay in their own half as a way of encouraging teams in possession to play from the back instead of hoofing it up the pitch to the big kid playing up front. I've seen some brilliant matches at the youngest level, but it leaves me wondering what happens to them from such a tender age up until when they become young adults.

Children are children and just because a child is born in Rio, it doesn't automatically transpire that they will be blessed with more skill than a kid born in Rusholme. The skill mindset created by kids who've played Futsal and progressed on to become outstanding professional players also cannot be understated, but rather than something akin to Futsal being the norm in the UK, parents have to pay through the nose for specialist classes where its taught. Even then its mostly shit! I taken my son to two Futsal schools previously and despaired at the disorganised way both were run. I've ended up training him myself and got better results and saved money in the process.

In this country there still seems to be a preoccupation pace and power as opposed to skill and tactical awareness. With the riches on offer for a place in the Premier League, are teams ever going to put performances and an ethos before a win? Some how I think we'll have a very long wait indeed before we see that happening. Until then all I can see is further international disappointment just like this summer.

 

[Centurions]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

I think it's a fair enough rule having 3 home grown players. I said the same thing when Arsenal were fielding 11 non English players so I'll have the same opinion now.

For all the talk that English players are not good enough, well we have Kun, Dzeko, Negredo and Jovetic up front. For an 18 year old kid that is going to be near on impossible to get on the bench let alone starting 11. If these players themselves had this situation themselves they would have struggled to break in.

Whilst that's probably true, it just turns one issue into another - the price of 'prime' English players skyrockets (which is partly why clubs started looking abroad in the first place).

Admittedly 'home grown' doesn't mean English per se - but still, if you're adopting a world wide recruiting network, and you're operating it fairly (no bias) the odds are that only a minority will come from England anyway, since you'll be scouting in 20 different countries (many of which may have larger numbers of kids to scout from), so by sheer probability, not many will be English.

In that instance, home grown will be fine, but it doesn't mean English. If we twist the rules to actually MEAN English players, then the price will be at a premium, meaning the top clubs (as always) will grab up the best because they are the only ones who can afford them.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm not sure quotas is it.

Something else I've been thinking too.... if the influx of foreign players IS the problem, then how come the there's plenty of nations where most of their players play abroad (and not at home) manage to have decent national sides? effectively they are playing with a bunch of foreigners at club level too.

If they do force through a HG rule you can bet your bottom dollar that it will slowly migrate to an English quota over a short period of time.

 

[Dribble]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

Overpriced! £30m Luke Shaw and £25m Adam Lallana moves BLASTED by Newcastle's Alan Pardew

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...lana-moves-BLASTED-by-Newcastle-s-Alan-Pardew

ALAN PARDEW has hit out at Manchester United and Liverpool for paying inflated fees for English players. United splashed £30million to secure Luke Shaw from Southampton while Liverpool are set to land Adam Lallana for around £25m.

Even Englishmen who have not played internationally are proving expensive, with Hull shelling out £8m for Spurs' Jake Livermore and striking a similar deal with Norwich for Scottish star Robert Snodgrass.

And while Pardew wants to bring English talent to St James' Park, he has revealed it is just not feasible for clubs like Newcastle.

"The fees being paid for players such as Luke Shaw and, it seems, Adam Lallana, illustrate an important point that supporters need to understand," Pardew said.

"Clubs like Newcastle get accused of not signing English players, but these are prices mid-table teams in the Premier League simply cannot afford, unlike Champions League clubs with their extra revenue.

"We recently inquired about an unproven player not in the side at one of our top clubs, and we were asked [for] £14m. He will not be joining.

"Yet we can pick up players such as Yohan Cabaye, Mathieu Debuchy and Moussa Sissoko for reasonable fees, all of whom have been starring for France at the World Cup."

Cabaye, Debuchy and Sissoko cost Newcastle just £11m, with Cabaye leaving for Paris Saint-Germain in January for £19m.

The Magpies have landed 20-year-old Tenerife striker Ayoze Perez and Sunderland midfielder Jack Colback so far this summer.

However, Pardew's squad needs significant further strengthening with strikers a priority.

Bafetimbi Gomis was in his sights before Swansea swooped while interest in Hertha Berlin's Pierre-Michel Lasogga is ongoing.

Newcastle are understood to also be monitoring Lyon forward Alexandre Lacazette's situation and are keeping tabs on Remy Cabella.

Says it all really.....

 

[stony]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

I'm curious, where's this long history of producing talent?

Southampton have in recent years produced:

Theo Walcott
Gareth Bale
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Adam Lallana
Wayne Bridge
Luke Shaw

Now, that's not a bad list, but it's not earth shattering either. Every now and then a club has a spate of great talent - just like United did with their golden generation, and at THAT time, everybody harped on about how good United's youth system was... then it dried up. We had the same for a while, a batch of great lads coming through like David White and Paul Lake and even before that, we were considered a decent producer of young lads, but it dried up too (not completely, but in comparison with our youth hey day).

With Crewe, the picture is definitely clearer - they did have a quite impressive record of young lads who went through them, but still, quite a few of them were actually taken up by other bigger clubs first, then dropped and sent off or transferred to Crewe. It wasn't like Crewe 'found' them.

I take your point that our super academy isn't going to ruin football and other academies will still exist, but surely if ours is to work, it's going to be capturing more talent from somewhere - we aren't going to develop players from magic dust. Those players we'll grab would have been going elsewhere until we diverted them to us. But say 40 years ago, the facilities difference (for young lads) between Man City and Oldham Athletic would be fairly minimal, the gap now is huge - since PL youth are getting all the trappings and facilities of PL stars (which might be part of our national youth problem!).

You can add Shearer to that list, he was at Southampton at 15/16.

 

[Centurions]

Re: Transfer Policy - English players

I'm curious, where's this long history of producing talent?

Southampton have in recent years produced:

Theo Walcott
Gareth Bale
Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Adam Lallana
Wayne Bridge
Luke Shaw

Now, that's not a bad list, but it's not earth shattering either. Every now and then a club has a spate of great talent - just like United did with their golden generation, and at THAT time, everybody harped on about how good United's youth system was... then it dried up. We had the same for a while, a batch of great lads coming through like David White and Paul Lake and even before that, we were considered a decent producer of young lads, but it dried up too (not completely, but in comparison with our youth hey day).

With Crewe, the picture is definitely clearer - they did have a quite impressive record of young lads who went through them, but still, quite a few of them were actually taken up by other bigger clubs first, then dropped and sent off or transferred to Crewe. It wasn't like Crewe 'found' them.

I take your point that our super academy isn't going to ruin football and other academies will still exist, but surely if ours is to work, it's going to be capturing more talent from somewhere - we aren't going to develop players from magic dust. Those players we'll grab would have been going elsewhere until we diverted them to us. But say 40 years ago, the facilities difference (for young lads) between Man City and Oldham Athletic would be fairly minimal, the gap now is huge - since PL youth are getting all the trappings and facilities of PL stars (which might be part of our national youth problem!).

You can add Shearer to that list, he was at Southampton at 15/16.

You could add Danny Wallace too although you may not want to....