How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[west didsblue]

Norway and Switzerland have very different relationships with the EU, so which approach do you see as most likely for the UK?

If we go down the Norwegian route, why do you think that the UK could join the EEA without a referendum?

How would you deal with the major issues not covered by the EEA, and the lack of influence in forming new single market legislation?

Why would the UK need to be in Schengen when Ireland seems to cope fine without it?

Personally I think this idea that the UK will naturally gravitate back to the single market is a pipe dream - the UK will either apply to rejoin the EU proper, which will obviously require another referendum in X amount of years and realistically very firm political support across the major parties - or the UK will try to make the best of the current set-up with some additional bi-lateral agreements in specific areas.

The two options probably aren’t mutually exclusive but either way moving back into the single market ain’t happening quickly, and full EU membership is arguably more likely than the EEA option.

I suspect more like Switzerland because their relationship is governed by a number of bilateral agreements rather than by EEA membership. This means a more incremental approach could happen with agreements phased in over a number of years that address our priorities.

The only reason Ireland isn’t in Schengen is because they are in the CTA with us which makes it impractical if not impossible for them to be in Schengen. Schengen associate membership, whilst not a UK priority may be part of a quid pro quo when other agreements are put in place because I suspect Ireland may push for it.

 

[bluethrunthru]

what is clear is that there is no way we reverse whats happened. By that I mean get back to where we were with all those hard won opt outs and advantages. They are gone and the EU know that and know if we try to return thats us coming back tail twixt our legs. All the alternatives above are just fudges to try and avoid looking silly and will face the criticism that we would be rule takers not rule makers.

Now the proponents of the Pacific shit deal overlook the fact that deal makes us exactly that - a member with no input into rule changes - but thems the facts. If we want to go back we will return to a very different EU and we will have to prove that we have put all this Leave crap behind us for good so you really are looking at the deaths of all the mouthy celeb agitators - your Farage's, Tice's , Rees-Moggs etc plus a change in editorial outlook from a lot of the media because at the end of the day the EU will not put time, effort and costs into negotiations that given a change of govt in 5 years time the UK would look to reverse again.

As long as people with this attitude exist in the UK why would the EU even bother with us?

 

[Brewster's millions]

We will have to reintegrate back towards the EU at some point, that's obvious.No party could rejoin without a referendum, they could if it's in a manifesto rejoin the single market / customs union. As that's the softest path back that's the most likely one taken. Whether that includes Schengen or doesn't, I don't really care.

I think there would need to be a proper referendum on EEA membership, as the question is too large to disentangle from the other issues that would be under discussion at an election.

Freedom of movement could very easily dominate, as would the UK’s lack of influence on new EU legislation. Above all the legitimacy of the EEA vote would need to be clear. Both Switzerland and Norway had referendums on the issue and would the EEA even accept the UK’s application if there were questions remaining on the degree public support? Presumably given recent history the bar to entry regarding the UK’s commitment would be higher.

 

[blueparrot]

I suspect more like Switzerland because their relationship is governed by a number of bilateral agreements rather than by EEA membership. This means a more incremental approach could happen with agreements phased in over a number of years that address our priorities.

The only reason Ireland isn’t in Schengen is because they are in the CTA with us which makes it impractical if not impossible for them to be in Schengen. Schengen associate membership, whilst not a UK priority may be part of a quid pro quo when other agreements are put in place because I suspect Ireland may push for it.

I would gues te first step or easiest as far as I can see would be for the rest of the UK to align itself with N. Ireland as part of the single market. Not sure how difficult or not that would be but seems a logical step to me.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

what is clear is that there is no way we reverse whats happened. By that I mean get back to where we were with all those hard won opt outs and advantages. They are gone and the EU know that and know if we try to return thats us coming back tail twixt our legs. All the alternatives above are just fudges to try and avoid looking silly and will face the criticism that we would be rule takers not rule makers.

Now the proponents of the Pacific shit deal overlook the fact that deal makes us exactly that - a member with no input into rule changes - but thems the facts. If we want to go back we will return to a very different EU and we will have to prove that we have put all this Leave crap behind us for good so you really are looking at the deaths of all the mouthy celeb agitators - your Farage's, Tice's , Rees-Moggs etc plus a change in editorial outlook from a lot of the media because at the end of the day the EU will not put time, effort and costs into negotiations that given a change of govt in 5 years time the UK would look to reverse again.

As long as people with this attitude exist in the UK why would the EU even bother with us?

Hate filled ****.

Her, not you btw! Agree with what you’ve said there.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The only way our reentry wouldn’t be vetoed is if we showed proper commitment to rejoining on terms that were less favourable to us than what we left on.

Which is totally fair btw.

 

[blueparrot]

I think there would need to be a proper referendum on EEA membership, as the question is too large to disentangle from the other issues that would be under discussion at an election.

Freedom of movement could very easily dominate, as would the UK’s lack of influence on new EU legislation. Above all the legitimacy of the EEA vote would need to be clear. Both Switzerland and Norway had referendums on the issue and would the EEA even accept the UK’s application if there were questions remaining on the degree public support? Presumably given recent history the bar to entry regarding the UK’s commitment would be higher.

On membership maybe, but as part of the UK is already part of the single market in their brilliant best of both worlds deal as negotiated and trumpeted by this government, with no referendums needed,the rest of us catching up without any referendum shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Brewster's millions]

On membership maybe, but as part of the UK is already part of the single market in their brilliant best of both worlds deal as negotiated and trumpeted by this government, with no referendums needed,the rest of us catching up without any referendum shouldn't be too difficult.

The NI element of the withdrawal agreement was always going to be the exception, and different in nature from the rest of the UK’s arrangements, so I don’t think it represents a realistic blueprint for the way ahead. Northern Ireland’s access to the single market only relates to goods in any case, so it’s not fully in the single market.

The rest of the UK could seek to align itself with NI and slavishly follow the single market rules for goods, but it wouldn’t count for shit as far as the EU are concerned, and they wouldn’t regard the UK as being part of the single market unless they joined the EEA and signed up for the usual ECJ oversight.

Product standard checks would still occur at the mainland UK-EU border, and again the other areas of single membership simply wouldn’t be influenced by mainland UK implementing a NI-style set up.

 

[mexico1970]

The NI element of the withdrawal agreement was always going to be the exception, and different in nature from the rest of the UK’s arrangements, so I don’t think it represents a realistic blueprint for the way ahead. Northern Ireland’s access to the single market only relates to goods in any case, so it’s not fully in the single market.

The rest of the UK could seek to align itself with NI and slavishly follow the single market rules for goods, but it wouldn’t count for shit as far as the EU are concerned, and they wouldn’t regard the UK as being part of the single market unless they joined the EEA and signed up for the usual ECJ oversight.

Product standard checks would still occur at the mainland UK-EU border, and again the other areas of single membership simply wouldn’t be influenced by mainland UK implementing a NI-style set up.

We have people following hateful fuckers on Twitter and posting those views as their own, Brewer on one side and they are the other.

The principle is that you can't in good faith call someone a hateful bastard and expect acceptance if you are one yourself.

 

[blueparrot]

The NI element of the withdrawal agreement was always going to be the exception, and different in nature from the rest of the UK’s arrangements, so I don’t think it represents a realistic blueprint for the way ahead. Northern Ireland’s access to the single market only relates to goods in any case, so it’s not fully in the single market.

The rest of the UK could seek to align itself with NI and slavishly follow the single market rules for goods, but it wouldn’t count for shit as far as the EU are concerned, and they wouldn’t regard the UK as being part of the single market unless they joined the EEA and signed up for the usual ECJ oversight.

Product standard checks would still occur at the mainland UK-EU border, and again the other areas of single membership simply wouldn’t be influenced by mainland UK implementing a NI-style set up.

Okay then lets say I accept that ( I don’t) , so what’s the answer ? We are down in the shit at some point we. Have to pull ourselves out and progress to repairing the partnership with the EU. What’s that pathway, what’s the new deal? as you seem to be ruling out all options and accepting that we stay up to our necks in the shit deal we negotiated ourselves into.
Unless of course you think this version of Brexit is all wine and roses.