Hughes..the reality

[bluenova]

Ok explain in detail how Hughless is a better manager than, Jose, Rijkaard, or Mancinni, considering they have all been in management for the same time?

Not much detail needed for this one - comparing apples and pears. They've been most successful in management at Champions League clubs.

Rijkaard's first domestic management job at Sparta Rotterdam lasted a season ended in relegation and the sack. Mancini won a cup at Fiorentina but hardly won any league games.

Accurately judging a manager from our position is pretty much impossible - put Phil Brown or Aidy Boothroyd in charge at Manchester United and you'd still put money on them to win something. In most cases these days the players (and the money that buys them) make the manager look good or bad. For all I know Hughes might be a fool but I don't know and if he gets sacked now I still won't know.

If any of the three big managers named above come in then they'll have a summer to spend big money and the quality of the players brought in will be much greater than the ones we've been able to buy so far. They'll almost inevitably do better - will that make them a better manager?

If Hughes stays he'll get the big money and a full summer window to spend it in. I'm certain we'll then be looking at top 6 and upwards. Suppose he makes the Champions League and our best League finish for 30 years - would that make him the best manager we've had for 30 years?

Whoever manages us over the next few years will appear to be a successful manager - all I hope for is that's someone who gets there playing positive attractive football.

 

[DINKYDALTON]

Just worked out some stats thanks to MCFC Stats and the results are quite surprising:

Taking only the managers that have managed us in the Premiership (and their Prem results) currently the most successful in terms of points per game is Sven, with 1.45. Second is Hughes (1.28) followed by Reid (1.26) then Keegan (1.22). If we win our last two games then he will be much closer to Sven with something like 1.39 points per game. If he stays next season then he will presumably soon become our most successful manager in the Premiership in terms of points per game.

In terms of win percentages then again it's Eriksson (39.47%) currently followed by Hughes (38.89%) but Hughes will equal Sven if we win just one of our last two games and pass him if we win both.

In terms of goals per game then it's Hughes (1.56) by a country mile from Keegan (1.30).

maybe you should also factor in the amount of money spent on players during their tenure......

Maybe you should just look at the figures.

If spending money was a factor then Spurs & Newcastle would be pushing the top 4. I just did the figures and would have posted them however they came out.

What about teams that have spent loads over the last 5 years and also have world class managers? Oh that would be chelski, the rags, L'pool and Arsenal , who are, where in the league, oh it escapes me, their , shit where are they, oh that's right, THE TOP FUCKING FOUR!!!!!

 

[DINKYDALTON]

Rijkaard's first domestic management job at Sparta Rotterdam lasted a season ended in relegation and the sack. Mancini won a cup at Fiorentina but hardly won any league games.

Rijkaard had the Sparta job dumped on him and Mancinni won that cup in his first season as a manager and with a team that was still recovering from the financial mess Sven left it in. If Hughes gets into the top four, then yes, he would be the best in the last 30 years.
But I think I was asking you to compare them now, not at the start, so once again, can you explain how Hughes is "NOW" a better manager than Jose, Rijkaard, or Mancinni?

 

[DINKYDALTON]

Rammy Blue - agree with you about Sven (although I'd have given him another season as you simply can't judge on one season) but the point is that at the end of this season, Hughes will at least catch him in win % and may overtake him and early next season (if he's still here) will overtake him in points per game. So by 10 games in next season, Hughes could actually be our most successful Premiership manager.

DinkyDalton - Villa have spent around £100m in the last 3 seasons but in O'Neill's first season they were 11th with 50 points and the next they were 6th with 60 points. I would certainly expect Hughes to do something similar to O'Neill in his second season if not slightly better. Interestingly Villa are currently 5th with 58 and so might end up no better off than last season even though they really should have been comfortably in 4th place if it hadn't been for their disastrous run since January.

I asked if you could explain in detail how Hughes is a better manager than Jose, Rijkaard, or Mancinni?

 

[Balti]

Just worked out some stats thanks to MCFC Stats and the results are quite surprising:

Taking only the managers that have managed us in the Premiership (and their Prem results) currently the most successful in terms of points per game is Sven, with 1.45. Second is Hughes (1.28) followed by Reid (1.26) then Keegan (1.22). If we win our last two games then he will be much closer to Sven with something like 1.39 points per game. If he stays next season then he will presumably soon become our most successful manager in the Premiership in terms of points per game.

In terms of win percentages then again it's Eriksson (39.47%) currently followed by Hughes (38.89%) but Hughes will equal Sven if we win just one of our last two games and pass him if we win both.

In terms of goals per game then it's Hughes (1.56) by a country mile from Keegan (1.30).

maybe you should also factor in the amount of money spent on players during their tenure......

Maybe you should just look at the figures.

If spending money was a factor then Spurs & Newcastle would be pushing the top 4. I just did the figures and would have posted them however they came out.

What about teams that have spent loads over the last 5 years and also have world class managers? Oh that would be chelski, the rags, L'pool and Arsenal , who are, where in the league, oh it escapes me, their , shit where are they, oh that's right, THE TOP FUCKING FOUR!!!!!

This argument is flawed as they were already the Top 4 five seasons ago.

We are not starting from the same position.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Rammy Blue - agree with you about Sven (although I'd have given him another season as you simply can't judge on one season) but the point is that at the end of this season, Hughes will at least catch him in win % and may overtake him and early next season (if he's still here) will overtake him in points per game. So by 10 games in next season, Hughes could actually be our most successful Premiership manager.

DinkyDalton - Villa have spent around £100m in the last 3 seasons but in O'Neill's first season they were 11th with 50 points and the next they were 6th with 60 points. I would certainly expect Hughes to do something similar to O'Neill in his second season if not slightly better. Interestingly Villa are currently 5th with 58 and so might end up no better off than last season even though they really should have been comfortably in 4th place if it hadn't been for their disastrous run since January.

I asked if you could explain in detail how Hughes is a better manager than Jose, Rijkaard, or Mancinni?

You are showing yourself up now and your irrational ranting is becoming an embarrassment.

As bluenova said, there's no comparing Hughes & the others. Only Jose has managed in the Premiership and he took over a team already in second and spent something like £350m to get them two consecutive titles. Rijkaard was relegated in his first season at Rotterdam then went to Barcelona, one of the world's top clubs. You could equally say that Hughes was conned by Thaksin as he thought he was coming to a wealthy club but it turned out to be one that was skint on on the verge of administration.

What about teams that have spent loads over the last 5 years and also have world class managers? Oh that would be chelski, the rags, L'pool and Arsenal , who are, where in the league, oh it escapes me, their , shit where are they, oh that's right, THE TOP FUCKING FOUR!!!!!

Do you really expect to be taken seriously spouting crap like this? For one thing, Arsenal aren't big spenders but they've given their manager time to implement his ideas, ehich involve buying good young players and slotting them into his system.

Liverpool and the rags have been top teams for years and their Champions League riches mean they have been spending big money season after season after season. It's taken Benitez 5 years to even come close to having a crack at the title having spent something like £250m. People think Chelsea were nothing before Abramovic but they had been in the top 4 for a good few years before that, from the 1997/98 season. United gave their manager time to do his job and build a team instead of sacking him because he didn't get top 4 in his first season.

Get a grip FFS or you'll do yourself some serious harm. You already sound like someone half-demented.

 

[bluenova]

But I think I was asking you to compare them now, not at the start, so once again, can you explain how Hughes is "NOW" a better manager than Jose, Rijkaard, or Mancinni?

And the point I was making is that they appear to be better NOW because they have managed BETTER teams. If each of them had to manage Wales then Blackburn we'd be able to compare.

If Hughes gets into the top four, then yes, he would be the best in the last 30 years.

Half a dozen of the managers we've had over the last thirty years would probably be able to get a top four place with unlimited funds. If Hughes gets there he's mostly the luckiest manager we've had, being in the right place at the right time.

Bacon Face gets plaudits for being one of the greatest ever managers. Maybe he is a genius but he was mainly lucky that United spent big at exactly the right time - when the Premier League and Champions League started. Similar story with Wenger - good manager but mostly right place, right time.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Rammy Blue - agree with you about Sven (although I'd have given him another season as you simply can't judge on one season) but the point is that at the end of this season, Hughes will at least catch him in win % and may overtake him and early next season (if he's still here) will overtake him in points per game. So by 10 games in next season, Hughes could actually be our most successful Premiership manager.

DinkyDalton - Villa have spent around £100m in the last 3 seasons but in O'Neill's first season they were 11th with 50 points and the next they were 6th with 60 points. I would certainly expect Hughes to do something similar to O'Neill in his second season if not slightly better. Interestingly Villa are currently 5th with 58 and so might end up no better off than last season even though they really should have been comfortably in 4th place if it hadn't been for their disastrous run since January.

I asked if you could explain in detail how Hughes is a better manager than Jose, Rijkaard, or Mancinni?

You are showing yourself up now and your irrational ranting is becoming an embarrassment.

As bluenova said, there's no comparing Hughes & the others. Only Jose has managed in the Premiership and he took over a team already in second and spent something like £350m to get them two consecutive titles. Rijkaard was relegated in his first season at Rotterdam then went to Barcelona, one of the world's top clubs.

What about teams that have spent loads over the last 5 years and also have world class managers? Oh that would be chelski, the rags, L'pool and Arsenal , who are, where in the league, oh it escapes me, their , shit where are they, oh that's right, THE TOP FUCKING FOUR!!!!!

Do you really expect to be taken seriously spouting crap like this? For one thing, Arsenal aren't big spenders but they've given their manager time to implement his ideas, ehich involve buying good young players and slotting them into his system.

Liverpool and the rags have been top teams for years and their Champions League riches mean they have been spending big money season after season after season. It's taken Benitez 5 years to even come close to having a crack at the title having spent something like £250m. People think Chelsea were nothing before Abramovic but they had been in the top 4 for a good few years before that, from the 1997/98 season. United gave their manager time to do his job and build a team instead of sacking him because he didn't get top 4 in his first season.

Get a grip FFS or you'll do yourself some serious harm. You already sound like someone half-demented.

It
Arsenal? Not big spenders, a total smokescreen.

They signed Berkgkamp over 12 years ago for nearly £7.5m, David Platt £5m. Other examples since include likes of Eduardo £10m, Hleb £10m, Rosicky £13m, Walcott £10m, Arshavin £15m.

And Chelsea were big spenders before the arrival of Abramovich - using Matthew Harding's money to buy likes of Zola, Vialli, Petit, Gullit, De Matteo.

They gatecrashed a Champions League spot on the final day against Liverpool - two days later Ambramovich bought them - Ken Bates admitting the club were on the verge of bancruptcy.

And don't get me started on United. They have been consistently this country's biggest spenders for the last 30 years.

Bryan Robson, Gary Pallister, later Van Nistelrooy, Veron, Ferdinand and Rooney.

It is your argument that falls down - the only club to win the league outside of the current top four is Blackburn - and they bought it within 18 months.

Don't believe this shit that the top four's success is based on giving manager's time - it's all about resources and nothing else.

 

[tamworthblue]

Two excellent posts JMA.

These points have been made before by other posters but, to me, really stick out.

1. Mr 'obviously, we're very disappointed' Hughes has won f*** all and never will. He is just a bullshitter with a limited grasp of tactics.

2. Teams with far less resources than we've had this season are doing just as well.

3. Zola and Redknapp have shown that you don't need xyz years to turn a team around.

4. Jo plays under Moyes and looks a different player.

I don't want to sack the manager every year. IF we have the chance to get someone decent, I just want to sack this one.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Arsenal? Not big spenders, a total smokescreen.

They signed Berkgkamp over 12 years ago for nearly £7.5m, David Platt £5m. Other examples since include likes of Eduardo £10m, Hleb £10m, Rosicky £13m, Walcott £10m, Arshavin £15m.

Here's a table of spending over the life of the Premiership (i.e. 1992 to date) The figures show gross spending, gross receipts, total net spend and average net spend per season.

1 Chelsea £538,690,000 £185,750,000 £352,940,000 £20,761,176
2 Liverpool £380,115,000 £177,670,000 £202,445,000 £11,908,529
3 Manchester United £391,150,000 £190,565,000 £200,585,000 £11,799,118
4 Manchester City £274,380,000 £80,553,000 £193,827,000 £11,401,588
5 Tottenham £356,600,000 £174,317,500 £182,282,500 £10,722,500
6 Newcastle £304,195,000 £175,225,000 £128,970,000 £7,586,471
7 Aston Villa £218,190,000 £92,225,000 £125,965,000 £7,409,706
9 Sunderland £152,765,000 £52,480,000 £100,285,000 £5,899,118
8 Middlesborough £179,285,000 £86,770,000 £92,515,000 £5,442,059
10 Arsenal £259,940,000 £180,724,000 £79,216,000 £4,659,765

Gross, Arsenal have spent less than Spurs & Newcastle and net they've spent less than Boro.

And you are another one so blinded by your anti-Hughes agenda that you don't read what I write. I said the others have been spending big for years.

Blackburn spent £13m in 1993/94 which was a lot for them. Their biggest spending season however was 1998/99 (£28m) and they were relegated that season. To say they bought the title is ludicrous; they certainly spent money but it was as much to do with having a successful manager in Dalglish and buying two excellent centre forwards in Shearer & Sutton. And they never managed to come close to it again. But it was a slightly more open competition in those days. When they won the league Nottingham Forest were third and Leeds 5th. The season before, when they were runners up, Wimbledon and Sheffield Wednesday were 6th and 7th. The following season was the famous one where Keegan's Newcastle threw away a 12 point lead.