"I would rather lose a tournament than break my word to a player"

flb said:
He looked assured all night to be fair, had a fair game in the semis aswell. He looks a good penalty stopper, dare I say it better than Joe.

Perhaps he's a keeper who needs a run of games like any player.
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Nail on the head. The criticism he got after Chelsea was ridiculous and I think the tears he shed and the point he made about how difficult a week it had been for him spoke volumes.

Well done Willy!
 
goalmole said:
Be it marriage, business, team sport or any other enterprise involving more than one human being, the biggest ingredient for success is trust. Ruthlessness is fine but it is a managers job to keep people motivated and on board. That involves having to accommodate everybody involved. If for whatever reason that promise is given, then that promise has to be kept. Not only if possible, or maybe, or if the circumstances are right, but at all costs. If not then that is the slippery slope of losing the confidence of everybody that has any dealings with you and you find yourself in the same situation that Mourinho finds himself in every 3 years at every club he goes to. It goes beyond football and to the core of what it means to be a good, decent and honest human being. Given the choice of a Mourinho and a Pellegrini, it'd be Pellegrini every time. I would be willing to bet that Pellegrini, whatever you think of his abilities as a manager, has the full respect of everybody at the club.
He certainly has mine.
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Top, top post and I agree with you 100%

JJ
 
goalmole said:
Hope this helps.

vindicate
ˈvɪndɪkeɪt/
verb
past tense: vindicated; past participle: vindicated
clear (someone) of blame or suspicion.
"hospital staff were vindicated by the inquest verdict"
synonyms: acquit, clear, absolve, free from blame, declare innocent, exonerate, exculpate, discharge, liberate, free, deliver, redeem;More
informallet off, let off the hook
"he maintained his innocence throughout the trial and has been fully vindicated by the jury"
antonyms: convict, blame, incriminate
show or prove to be right, reasonable, or justified.
"more sober views were vindicated by events"
synonyms: justify, warrant, substantiate, establish, demonstrate, ratify, authenticate, verify, confirm, corroborate, prove, defend, offer grounds for, support, back, evidence, bear out, bear witness to, endorse, give credence to, lend weight to;
rareextenuate
"I felt I had fully vindicated my request"
Click to expand...

'Let off the hook' is the relevant one.
His position would be, imo, untenable if Willy had fucked up & the 'honourable' thing would have been resignation.

As it turned out, Willy played a blinder, so both City fans & Pellegrini are thankful this morning & it also makes for a great story & goes down in 'istree'.
 
buckshot said:
I don't get the love of MP because he puts the feelings of one player ahead of the ambitions of the rest of the team and all of the supporters. I'm ECSTATIC for Willy and love that it was him who turned out to be the hero, but if it had turned out differently there would be a lot of people he'd have let down. Doesn't he promise the ownership that he'll do whatever he can to win trophies? Doesn't he owe the thousands and thousands of supporters who made the trek to Wembley the best possible team selection? Imagine if you played your whole career and never were on a trophy winning team and knowing that your best opportunity was flushed away by your manager because of a "promise"?
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Some folk will never ever get it...

Never mind.

JJ
 
BurnCK said:
Didn't Mancini change goalkeepers for the FA Cup loss to Wigan after playing Panti throughout? I guess showing a bit of loyalty has its rewards...
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And didn't the whole team more or less quit on him in that final as well?

Not saying one thing necessarily caused the other, but for my part I'd take an honourable manager every day of the week over someone like that.

Helps with recruiting too, I would think. Also one less reason for media cretins to slam the club.
 
He didn't say it and we didn't lose. Had we lost he would have been ridiculed for such a statement.
Task
Team
Individual

This is the correct priority according to pretty much every great military and sporting leader.
 
Pell not Pep ;-) said:
That's why we need to stick together and have faith. For me supporting City has always been about swimming against the tide. I'm gutted Manuel is leaving. He is perfect for City but I'm sure he feels Pep can continue to help the club grow. He takes so much crap in press conferences and at games and on these forums. I hope he wins 2 more trophies with us. People call him stubborn, boring and tactically clueless. For stubborn try confident. For boring try calm. For tactically clueless try 100% steadfast in his beliefs.
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well said!
 
Javi Garcia's Hairstylist said:
And didn't the whole team more or less quit on him in that final as well?

Not saying one thing necessarily caused the other, but for my part I'd take an honourable manager every day of the week over someone like that.

Helps with recruiting too, I would think. Also one less reason for media cretins to slam the club.
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The club had actually quit on him, & Pellegrini was honourably taking his job behind his back. It's all bollocks from both sides imo. The team & manager were shit v Wigan & fucked up. Yesterday the team & manager were very good & won. I doubt they would have been worse if Joe had played but we might not have won the shootout so the gamble paid off.

But it was most certainly a gamble & he was willing to lose the cup final on the strength of it.

I don't believe many City fans would agree with that philosophy pre kickoff.
 
Dribble said:
I suppose it comes down to whether you want to be everyone's best mate or win trophies. Unfortunately if you gave most successful organisations the choice of Mr Nice Guy, or the cut throat winner, most would opt for the latter. It's the law of the jungle.
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No it doesn't. It doesn't do that at all.

It comes down to the fact that Manuel Pellegrini is the type of winner who forced himself to train and play at a high enough level to have a 20 year professional football career at international level, then took that will and determination into a management career where he went from a player in Chile to the manager of Real Madrid and Man City.

You don't fall into this with a cheeky smile and a firm handshake.

Pellegrini knows more about football than you do, Dribble. That is a 100% unarguable fact. He knows more about man management than you do. That is also a 100% unarguable fact. He is one of the top professionals in his field which is amongst the most competitive fields of employment that the entire human species has. He knows more about this City squad, the players and their reactions than you do. That is a 100% unarguable fact.

He quite rightly thinks that without trust from his players the entire idea of a squad falls apart and you can't tell someone that they should work hard towards a specific goal then take away that specific goal after they've held up their end of the bargain. Exactly like Pep Guardiola does, for the record.

I wanted him to play Hart. I was wrong, because I was thinking in terms of a single game and not how showing the squad that he can't be trusted no matter how much work you put in would affect our future chances in other competitions. If the manager's word is worthless then there's little reason to think that the people who aren't first choice will work hard thinking that they can get their shot. There's also little reason for the first choice players to work hard and keep their place because nobody below them is getting in anyway.

Turns out that Pellegrini is a winner and thinks that the trust of the squad is more important than a single League Cup game to his job.

I fucking hate people who can't hold up their hands when they get things wrong, and inside try to turn it into something else. Your ridiculous vendetta against Pellegrini where even after winning a cup final you have to slag him off marks you as exactly the type of person who could never achieve the things Pellegrini has.
 
Damocles said:
No it doesn't. It doesn't do that at all.

It comes down to the fact that Manuel Pellegrini is the type of winner who forced himself to train and play at a high enough level to have a 20 year professional football career at international level, then took that will and determination into a management career where he went from a player in Chile to the manager of Real Madrid and Man City.

You don't fall into this with a cheeky smile and a firm handshake.

Pellegrini knows more about football than you do, Dribble. That is a 100% unarguable fact. He knows more about man management than you do. That is also a 100% unarguable fact. He is one of the top professionals in his field which is amongst the most competitive fields of employment that the entire human species has. He knows more about this City squad, the players and their reactions than you do. That is a 100% unarguable fact.

He quite rightly thinks that without trust from his players the entire idea of a squad falls apart and you can't tell someone that they should work hard towards a specific goal then take away that specific goal after they've held up their end of the bargain. Exactly like Pep Guardiola does, for the record.

I wanted him to play Hart. I was wrong, because I was thinking in terms of a single game and not how showing the squad that he can't be trusted no matter how much work you put in would affect our future chances in other competitions. If the manager's word is worthless then there's little reason to think that the people who aren't first choice will work hard thinking that they can get their shot. There's also little reason for the first choice players to work hard and keep their place because nobody below them is getting in anyway.

Turns out that Pellegrini is a winner and thinks that the trust of the squad is more important than a single League Cup game to his job.

I fucking hate people who can't hold up their hands when they get things wrong, and inside try to turn it into something else. Your ridiculous vendetta against Pellegrini where even after winning a cup final you have to slag him off marks you as exactly the type of person who could never achieve the things Pellegrini has.
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An excellent post, if not a little harsh on dibble... I'd say the pride element you allude to, in us all, stays true in one form or other...

I agree 100% regarding manuel, I found myself doubting his abilities over the last 3/4 months, to the extent it becomes a crusade to shoot him down at every opportunity.. He's undoubtedly a brilliant manager, his cv speaks for itself, but the thing that really shines through and been paramount from day dot?? His ability to command respect without having to bite back at his snipers, the epitome of class and could teach a few, including myself, a lesson in humility....

Go and bring the title home manuel!!!
 
Damocles said:
No it doesn't. It doesn't do that at all.

It comes down to the fact that Manuel Pellegrini is the type of winner who forced himself to train and play at a high enough level to have a 20 year professional football career at international level, then took that will and determination into a management career where he went from a player in Chile to the manager of Real Madrid and Man City.

You don't fall into this with a cheeky smile and a firm handshake.

Pellegrini knows more about football than you do, Dribble. That is a 100% unarguable fact. He knows more about man management than you do. That is also a 100% unarguable fact. He is one of the top professionals in his field which is amongst the most competitive fields of employment that the entire human species has. He knows more about this City squad, the players and their reactions than you do. That is a 100% unarguable fact.

He quite rightly thinks that without trust from his players the entire idea of a squad falls apart and you can't tell someone that they should work hard towards a specific goal then take away that specific goal after they've held up their end of the bargain. Exactly like Pep Guardiola does, for the record.

I wanted him to play Hart. I was wrong, because I was thinking in terms of a single game and not how showing the squad that he can't be trusted no matter how much work you put in would affect our future chances in other competitions. If the manager's word is worthless then there's little reason to think that the people who aren't first choice will work hard thinking that they can get their shot. There's also little reason for the first choice players to work hard and keep their place because nobody below them is getting in anyway.

Turns out that Pellegrini is a winner and thinks that the trust of the squad is more important than a single League Cup game to his job.

I fucking hate people who can't hold up their hands when they get things wrong, and inside try to turn it into something else. Your ridiculous vendetta against Pellegrini where even after winning a cup final you have to slag him off marks you as exactly the type of person who could never achieve the things Pellegrini has.
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Good post. The point about trust of the players is interesting. I agree, on the whole - for the players to know they can trust you etc, and respect you is clearly key. This element of man management is clearly a strength of his - the players knowing he treats the team in the correct fashion. On the other hand, I wonder, do you think the players would have wanted (at one point) him to play Hart, as they had more trust in him as a player, and thought their chances of a final win would be greater. I don't know.

The line about losing a final, rather than his word, is a great one, and tells you everything you need to know about Pellegrini. It's not news, but his 'class' is undeniable. Whether every football fan agrees with that, at the price of winning is up for debate, as is whether that is right or wrong. But it is good to have that class throughout your club (especially when such an act has been entirely vindicated!)

(I'm not sure it's 100% unarguable that he is a better man manager than Dribble. You don't know Dribble do you - he could be a phenomenal man manager in his job, and built a successful career around it, but that's neither here nor there. Just thought it was a bit harsh!)
 
Damocles said:
No it doesn't. It doesn't do that at all.

It comes down to the fact that Manuel Pellegrini is the type of winner who forced himself to train and play at a high enough level to have a 20 year professional football career at international level, then took that will and determination into a management career where he went from a player in Chile to the manager of Real Madrid and Man City.

You don't fall into this with a cheeky smile and a firm handshake.

Pellegrini knows more about football than you do, Dribble. That is a 100% unarguable fact. He knows more about man management than you do. That is also a 100% unarguable fact. He is one of the top professionals in his field which is amongst the most competitive fields of employment that the entire human species has. He knows more about this City squad, the players and their reactions than you do. That is a 100% unarguable fact.

He quite rightly thinks that without trust from his players the entire idea of a squad falls apart and you can't tell someone that they should work hard towards a specific goal then take away that specific goal after they've held up their end of the bargain. Exactly like Pep Guardiola does, for the record.

I wanted him to play Hart. I was wrong, because I was thinking in terms of a single game and not how showing the squad that he can't be trusted no matter how much work you put in would affect our future chances in other competitions. If the manager's word is worthless then there's little reason to think that the people who aren't first choice will work hard thinking that they can get their shot. There's also little reason for the first choice players to work hard and keep their place because nobody below them is getting in anyway.

Turns out that Pellegrini is a winner and thinks that the trust of the squad is more important than a single League Cup game to his job.

I fucking hate people who can't hold up their hands when they get things wrong, and inside try to turn it into something else. Your ridiculous vendetta against Pellegrini where even after winning a cup final you have to slag him off marks you as exactly the type of person who could never achieve the things Pellegrini has.
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I think the key point many of us are making is that it's a promise he should have never made, and I noticed it's one you also made on the citywatch podcast.

I see the credence to the trust of the squad argument, and I fully recognise its importance, but Manuel backed himself into that corner, it's a promise he never had to make. And it led to him playing Russian roulette yesterday.

There were some serious potential drawbacks to either choice, he started a player in poor form due to a previous promise going against all conventional wisdom costing us the cup final and losing the support with it (potentially derailing the whole season), or he dropped the out of form player for a superior alternative and we lost anyway, and we'd be plotless and Pellegrini would have lost the trust and respect of the squad (potentially derailing the whole season).

Thankfully it went perfectly, fairytale stuff. But make no mistake, Pellegrini made a huge error making that promise in the first place, and it led to him taking a huge gamble.

Personally, hearing his comments when I got back really jarred with me. We knew that was his thinking going into the game, and that's what angered so many of us. If things hadn't gone so well and we'd lost I'm sure he wouldn't have been so forthcoming in his post match interview.

But, I'm of course delighted it went the way it did. Especially for Willy to be the hero the way he did, could see how much it meant to him and the rest of the squad, could inspire us on now in the league, fingers crossed.

All about those margins in football, a hair' breadth from catastrophe and euphoria.
 
Damocles said:
No it doesn't. It doesn't do that at all.

It comes down to the fact that Manuel Pellegrini is the type of winner who forced himself to train and play at a high enough level to have a 20 year professional football career at international level, then took that will and determination into a management career where he went from a player in Chile to the manager of Real Madrid and Man City.

You don't fall into this with a cheeky smile and a firm handshake.

Pellegrini knows more about football than you do, Dribble. That is a 100% unarguable fact. He knows more about man management than you do. That is also a 100% unarguable fact. He is one of the top professionals in his field which is amongst the most competitive fields of employment that the entire human species has. He knows more about this City squad, the players and their reactions than you do. That is a 100% unarguable fact.

He quite rightly thinks that without trust from his players the entire idea of a squad falls apart and you can't tell someone that they should work hard towards a specific goal then take away that specific goal after they've held up their end of the bargain. Exactly like Pep Guardiola does, for the record.

I wanted him to play Hart. I was wrong, because I was thinking in terms of a single game and not how showing the squad that he can't be trusted no matter how much work you put in would affect our future chances in other competitions. If the manager's word is worthless then there's little reason to think that the people who aren't first choice will work hard thinking that they can get their shot. There's also little reason for the first choice players to work hard and keep their place because nobody below them is getting in anyway.

Turns out that Pellegrini is a winner and thinks that the trust of the squad is more important than a single League Cup game to his job.

I fucking hate people who can't hold up their hands when they get things wrong, and inside try to turn it into something else. Your ridiculous vendetta against Pellegrini where even after winning a cup final you have to slag him off marks you as exactly the type of person who could never achieve the things Pellegrini has.
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Yes I agree Manuel knows more about the machinations of football than I do, but seeing as you and I have never met how do you form the view that he's a better man manager than I am?

You've got your G-Strings in a twist and gone off on a personal tangent in a direction of your own making. Let me make it plain and clear for you so you understand fella. I thought the reaction to the defeat to Chelsea was way over the top. Whilst Willy didn't have a great game, he wasn't as bad as many (including yourself) were making out so I personally had no issue with him being between the sticks yesterday (unlike you).

My whole and ONLY point was Manuel's statement that he'd rather lose the tournament than go back on his word to a player. This isn't about Willy per se, but just the fact he made that statement at all. Was Manuel even asked the question 'Would you rather lose the tournament than go back on your word to Willy or did he just offer it as a statement after the fact that Willy essentially won us the cup OR was this statement made before yesterday's match?'

What would have been more sensible imo is if when asked the question about picking Willy Manuel said, 'Of course Willy will play. In terms of the Chelsea match it's difficult for any player to come in after not playing regularly and instantly be 100%, but I have 100% faith in Willy and I'm sure he won't let us down. So in that respect, Willy plays!' Simple innit, it would have silenced the Willy doubters (like yourself) and shown strong leadership from Manuel.

Manuel has a duty of care to Manchester City and to come out and say he would not do everything in his power to win us a tournament just so he can save one player's feelings in a dereliction of duty on his part! Where was his concern for Jovetic's feelings last season when he effectively signaled that he was no longer wanted here after dropping him from the CL squad. Where were you and your bleeding heart then? Why guarantee Willy a place in the final, but not guarantee Jovetic a place in the CL squad?

Is it because Willy is his mate from Malaga why this promise was made? Was it because Jovetic meant fuck all to him that he was ruthlessly cast aside? OR did Manuel do what he thought was in the best interest of the CL squad which (unless something's changed and I've missed the memo) is his job to do so?

You state I have a vendetta against Manuel, so go on what vendetta is this? You need to engage your brain, before you allow your fingers to start tapping out utter twaddle on the internet dude. You say I should hold my hands up when I've got things wrong? So go on then, which 'things' are these?

I don't need to have played international football or managed Real or City to be able to see and comment on the good or bad bits of Manuel, because if that was the case what's the point of this forum that you moderate? More to the point which international team have you ever played for that makes your comment any more relevant than any random poster on here?

I've been steadfast from early on in Manuel's reign with my opinion of his gung-ho philosophy and it has never wavered, but I cheered and yelled my head off as always when we scored and eventually won yesterday and couldn't be happier for all involved including Manuel. But I do recall certain people were hoping we would get beaten by Wigan in the 2013 FA Cup final so as to hasten the departure of our previous manager, so where were you in your defence of the previous inbumbent then?

What you've proved by your utterly inane rant is that you've got a deep seated axe to grind with me, which if true, let's take it to PM and settle whatever issues you've got swilling around your cranium there. As for your curious post, it's like flicking dirt off my shoulder fella........
 
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Damocles said:
No it doesn't. It doesn't do that at all.

It comes down to the fact that Manuel Pellegrini is the type of winner who forced himself to train and play at a high enough level to have a 20 year professional football career at international level, then took that will and determination into a management career where he went from a player in Chile to the manager of Real Madrid and Man City.

You don't fall into this with a cheeky smile and a firm handshake.

Pellegrini knows more about football than you do, Dribble. That is a 100% unarguable fact. He knows more about man management than you do. That is also a 100% unarguable fact. He is one of the top professionals in his field which is amongst the most competitive fields of employment that the entire human species has. He knows more about this City squad, the players and their reactions than you do. That is a 100% unarguable fact.

He quite rightly thinks that without trust from his players the entire idea of a squad falls apart and you can't tell someone that they should work hard towards a specific goal then take away that specific goal after they've held up their end of the bargain. Exactly like Pep Guardiola does, for the record.

I wanted him to play Hart. I was wrong, because I was thinking in terms of a single game and not how showing the squad that he can't be trusted no matter how much work you put in would affect our future chances in other competitions. If the manager's word is worthless then there's little reason to think that the people who aren't first choice will work hard thinking that they can get their shot. There's also little reason for the first choice players to work hard and keep their place because nobody below them is getting in anyway.

Turns out that Pellegrini is a winner and thinks that the trust of the squad is more important than a single League Cup game to his job.

I fucking hate people who can't hold up their hands when they get things wrong, and inside try to turn it into something else. Your ridiculous vendetta against Pellegrini where even after winning a cup final you have to slag him off marks you as exactly the type of person who could never achieve the things Pellegrini has.
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Its an excellent post is that mate.

I have backed Pellegrini through thick and thin on this board but even I bemoaned his decision to play Willy yesterday and like many, ive been shown up to be an idiot and the manager has shown once again he gets far more right than he gets wrong.
 
I can see how little you care about this Dribble by the 2000 word post you just made on it.
 
I keep hearing Manuel didn't have to make that promise, but to have a decent back up keeper I think he did. To keep somebody sharp and motivated there has to be some prospect of first team games and the 2 cups are the best way of doing that. Once you've said to somebody your my cup keeper then that's the promise made really, unless you say you're the cup keeper but get us to the final and you probably won't play, I'm not sure the rest of the squad, especially his Argentnian mates would be too impressed. If Hart got injured we will need a confident and happy keeper to step in.
 
goalmole said:
Be it marriage, business, team sport or any other enterprise involving more than one human being, the biggest ingredient for success is trust. Ruthlessness is fine but it is a managers job to keep people motivated and on board. That involves having to accommodate everybody involved. If for whatever reason that promise is given, then that promise has to be kept. Not only if possible, or maybe, or if the circumstances are right, but at all costs. If not then that is the slippery slope of losing the confidence of everybody that has any dealings with you and you find yourself in the same situation that Mourinho finds himself in every 3 years at every club he goes to. It goes beyond football and to the core of what it means to be a good, decent and honest human being. Given the choice of a Mourinho and a Pellegrini, it'd be Pellegrini every time. I would be willing to bet that Pellegrini, whatever you think of his abilities as a manager, has the full respect of everybody at the club.
He certainly has mine.
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That there are people who don't get this boggles the mind!
 
I've questioned Manuel many times this season but can honestly say that I had no problem seeing Willy in goal yesterday. I just had a feeling after all the crap thrown at him last week that he was going to have a decent game, especially if the Kiev 'outfield' team was left intact. He played Pantellimon against the Mackems too while Roberto played Joe against Wigan......maybe Pelle is spot-on and Karma does indeed exist.....
 
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