Ice Hockey | Player arrested for manslaughter following death of Adam Johnson (P18)

[city2]

Not looking good to me.

 

[Stephen230]

Weird that this has happened.

I was chatting with a bloke today who was at the game. He's got a season ticket with the Sheffield Steelers and sounded like he knew his stuff regarding ice hockey.

He said it was a definite accident. The player was off balance due to a nudge from another player.

However, there must evidence for him to get arrested surely?

I really hope it's a freak accident as that's some grim shit if it was intended (his leg being up that high) to hurt or scare the opponent.

It’s noticeable that on the various threads on Twitter about it, the majority of people who’ve played the game seem to be in agreement that it was most likely a pure accident.

Whilst to most people who don’t know the game, and I include myself in that, it looks as clear as day like he’s lined him up, nipped behind the ref, and deliberately taken him out with a Kung Foo kick.

 

[Coatigan]

I've been out of the criminal game for 3 years now but for involuntary manslaughter my understanding is its an objective test whether the act presented risk of physical harm (so not serious harm even) rather than what was in the mind of the offender (in which case, a subjective test). The objective test is what a reasonable person would conclude.

Secondly there only has to be an intention as to the act. So here, the intention to kick the opponent.

Thus it may come down to whether there is sufficient evidence to determine if there was intent as to the act (actus reus) rather than an accident.

We are not privy to other evidence that may exist: has the player used this kick before? did anything happen between the players during the game or previous games? are we able to rule out the blades clashing such as to cause the leg to lift so highly?

When it happened I fully expected him to be interviewed, albeit on a voluntary basis under caution. His arrest is of note-perhaps it was needed so that officers could conduct section 18 searches? phones, other evidence?

Does context not come into it?

i.e different kicking someone at the opera and in a hockey game where they kick the shit out of each other regularly.

Without this being a comment on this particular one.

 

[Coatigan]

Cheers, seems like a tough one to judge. Even on here there’s a split between those who think it was an accident and those who believe that it was intentional.

I haven't seen anyone here think it was intentional. Every single person seems to think he did not mean to kill another player.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Looks enough for Manslaughter. I watched the accident via an American TV News clip.

It's an illegal blow, not an accident. You wouldn't lose control of your skates or try to correct it by pulling your foot up like that.

 

[Coatigan]

As a side question, does anybody else find it somewhat uncomfortable that so many people worldwide are rushing to watch online videos, of something that results in the death of another person? Something that wouldn't otherwise interest them. I can't help finding that a bit perverse.

 

[grunge]

It’s noticeable that on the various threads on Twitter about it, the majority of people who’ve played the game seem to be in agreement that it was most likely a pure accident.

Whilst to most people who don’t know the game, and I include myself in that, it looks as clear as day like he’s lined him up, nipped behind the ref, and deliberately taken him out with a Kung Foo kick.

To be honest I know plenty of people who play Ice Hockey and have been for decades who think he's in trouble. that it was intended to block the player in a reckless move rather than kick / hurt him, the thing is Petgrave has form. he's certainly not an angel and is renowned for playing rough and trying to wind up other players etc.

Personally, As someone that has watched Hockey for 8 years and can skate ( not to the same level by any stretch but Im comfortable on the ice ) I watched the video up to the point of contact a couple of times and its such a poor video its difficult to see what happened. for me there's 2 possible scenarios in that video. if its his left skate that contacted then its seems to be a move to block Johnson's run that went very badly wrong. Being bumped on your right side wont make your left leg raise off the ice like that, if he's spun around by the collision and its his right skate that contacted then yeah its 100% innocent accident.

Due to the really poor video quality im witholding any judgement till after the investigation. but the fact that players on the ice are backing him up its a good sign it really was an accident. all will come out in the investigation tho. I doubt Petgrave will play agin tho either way.

 

[Phil1]

I haven't seen anyone here think it was intentional. Every single person seems to think he did not mean to kill another player

It did look like he jumped at him, karate style...

Having watched it a few times it does look like he left his foot hanging, probably didn't mean to kill him like

Charge the **** with murder, absolute shithouse

manslaughter is appropriate i think. Clear intent to cause serious harm

If that was a freak accident, then I'm Batman

Just watched it, no way is that an accident.. supposed to be playing ice hockey not fucking karate.

If you haven't watched it, go and do so, he meant the kick but not the outcome, unbalanced, my arse.

@Coatigan you obviously didn’t read too far back. Nobody is saying the outcome is intentional but the intent to cause harm.

 

[Coatigan]

@Coatigan you obviously didn’t read too far back. Nobody is saying the outcome is intentional but the intent to cause harm.

I stand corrected. With a couple of those.

I contest many of them, which to me are not arguing he meant to actually kill another person, which is how I read your post.

But as I did say nobody, you are right one way or the other, as just one is enough to prove me wrong.

 

[Phil1]

I stand corrected. With a couple of those.

I contest many of them, which to me are not arguing he meant to actually kill another person, which is how I read your post.

But as I did say nobody, you are right one way or the other, as just one is enough to prove me wrong.

I wasn’t even arguing the point that anybody had said he intended to kill him, just the intent to kick him, which would probably be enough for the manslaughter charge to stick. I honestly can’t decide one way or another tbh.

 

[Cellarite]

Weird that this has happened.

I was chatting with a bloke today who was at the game. He's got a season ticket with the Sheffield Steelers and sounded like he knew his stuff regarding ice hockey.

He said it was a definite accident. The player was off balance due to a nudge from another player.

However, there must evidence for him to get arrested surely?

I really hope it's a freak accident as that's some grim shit if it was intended (his leg being up that high) to hurt or scare the opponent.

I don't understand this logic. Whether the bloke you spoke to was there or not, his is only an opinion.

I was at the Young Boys home match last weekend but someone who didn't go but watched it live on TNT would almost certainly know more about the match than me.

 

[RACHACE]

I don't understand this logic. Whether the bloke you spoke to was there or not, his is only an opinion.

I was at the Young Boys home match last weekend but someone who didn't go but watched it live on TNT would almost certainly know more about the match than me.

He watches what is a minority sport in this country, live and on a regular basis.

Him having a better understanding of the game, it's nature, speed and the players than me or anyone else who doesn't watch it is pretty simple logic.

It's still an opinion yes but it's an opinion formed with more knowledge than most on here.

Can't say I agree with your 2nd statement either. From my own perspective anyway.

 

[Cellarite]

He watches what is a minority sport in this country, live and on a regular basis.

Him having a better understanding of the game, it's nature, speed and the players than me or anyone else who doesn't watch it is pretty simple logic.

It's still an opinion yes but it's an opinion formed with more knowledge than most on here.

Can't say I agree with your 2nd statement either. From my own perspective anyway.

That's fair enough. I can think of arguments either way. I was on the very back row of the away end at Newcastle in the FA Cup when Keegan was in charge. I reckon I saw the patterns of play and formations developing better than anyone watching on tv. Then again, when Yaya Toure was sent off in the Champions League (I think against CSKA), a lot of people (myself included) around me in the stadium wondered what he'd been sent off for and were calling the referee incompetent and corrupt. Then I got home, switched BT sports on and saw Yaya deck the opposing player.

The person you spoke to about the ice hockey had one view of the incident, from his seat in the arena, with plexi-glass between him and the incident. You don't have to be a regular attendee at ice hockey to know that it is a fast game. Does he skate or play ice-hockey himself? Did he give his thoughts on why the player's booted foot was at least 4 foot off the ice?

 

[grunge]

On a happier note, Petr Cech just signed for Belfas Giants on loan as a back up goalie.

 

[bert38]

Does context not come into it?

i.e different kicking someone at the opera and in a hockey game where they kick the shit out of each other regularly.

Without this being a comment on this particular one.

Yes, for example an objective (reasonable person) test may conclude that kicking somebody whilst wearing a skate is highly dangerous. But of course it is a contact sport. Lots to unravel during the investigation.

 

[bluealf]

@Coatigan you obviously didn’t read too far back. Nobody is saying the outcome is intentional but the intent to cause harm.

There is also another clip of the same player doing a very similar move on another player in a different game, that adds another level to the thought that it was his intention to foul that player, I hope he lives with the consequences of his actions.
Also the classy fans gave that player a rousing applause in the last game he played in support of him.

Also poor imo

 

[grunge]

Does context not come into it?

i.e different kicking someone at the opera and in a hockey game where they kick the shit out of each other regularly.

Without this being a comment on this particular one.

Kicks in Ice hockey are a major no no. its instant ban for x number of matches territory to use a foot.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

There is also another clip of the same player doing a very similar move on another player in a different game, that adds another level to the thought that it was his intention to foul that player, I hope he lives with the consequences of his actions.
Also the classy fans gave that player a rousing applause in the last game he played in support of him.

Also poor imo

There’s no doubt that it appears he has used that technique more than once to obstruct his opponent’s movement.

I guess it is similar to a footballer stopping a promising attack by deliberately blocking their man. The dark art professional foul.

The difference is, is that the skater is wearing a blade.

Back in the day where players wore metal studs and deliberately sharpened them and they managed to sever an artery in making a professional foul is as close as we could get in football.

He’s meant to foul him, but unless he admits he was trying to cut him, it can only be manslaughter if it gets that far.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Kicks in Ice hockey are a major no no. its instant ban for x number of matches territory to use a foot.

Wouldn’t he argue that he was using a lifted leg to stop him and it’s unfortunate that the contact was with the blade?

Would that count towards mitigation, or is the use of a leg banned too because of the increased likelihood of contact with a blade?

 

[grunge]

Wouldn’t he argue that he was using a lifted leg to stop him and it’s unfortunate that the contact was with the blade?

Would that count towards mitigation, or is the use of a leg banned too because of the increased likelihood of contact with a blade?

In terms of safety rules by the league any raised leg is a no no. For the reason you mention.