There are few players in the team who want the ball, and make themselves available for it, than Gundogan; that is not a criticism that can be levelled at him.
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Ilkay Gundogan - 2018/19 performances
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I agree that with time it may be possible, I am definitely not certain. But I would say based on what you've presented that:I mean, but what about the times it worked, like Tottenham at home or Napoli away, or many of other games David Silva wasn't about where we played rather well?
Is it not possible that KDB still getting back to fitness combined with the fact it was his and Gundogan and Fern's first match together that is affecting things?
Things take time, and as evidenced with other individuals (eg Danilo & Jesus) a consistent run can help, whereas a broken run can stall things. So is it not possible that if the trio were to get more time together, like they often did last season, then it could work? Like it did last season.
a) You quoted two high profile matches in which the opposition did not sit back, so Gundogan and Kevin's counter-attacking passing was probably very good in those games. Against opposition that sit back and defend I think it's less effective to have both. Some people have even noted that last 2 seasons Gundogan has been good in "BIG" games as others have noted, but bad against the parked bus.
b) Other than those two games, and maybe 1 or 2 other games (that I've seen the pair work badly), I think in general when they have played together it hasn't been that great. Somebody will have to look up the times they have played together but I think more often than not it doesn't work out, or the correlation is it works in 'BIG' games only.
Okay So I checked when the two played together last season, actually it was alot of games so I stand corrected. Something I noticed about the results:I mean, but what about the times it worked, like Tottenham at home or Napoli away, or many of other games David Silva wasn't about where we played rather well?
Is it not possible that KDB still getting back to fitness combined with the fact it was his and Gundogan and Fern's first match together that is affecting things?
Things take time, and as evidenced with other individuals (eg Danilo & Jesus) a consistent run can help, whereas a broken run can stall things. So is it not possible that if the trio were to get more time together, like they often did last season, then it could work? Like it did last season.
1) Kevin and Gundogan together won us our smaller game margins, ie the 1-0, 2-1s etc, the bigger margin games had David and Kevin starting (and possibly Gundogan as an anchor), BUT
2) Kevin and Gundogan started alot of big games together (forget liverpool disaster), and together they beat Arsenal and Tottenham twice, and Chelsea and some Champions league games.
3) Kevin and Gundogan have played with Silva, where Gundogan has anchored both, some of those wins were big games against Tottenham, Arsenal and Champions league. So in those 'big' game wins they both didn't play the floating 8 role.
I think my conclusion after looking at the history is that Kevin and Gundogan can play together as floating 8's in big games where counter attacking is often used, or if David plays and Gundogan plays as an anchor so he is looking towards goal most of the time.
In the more regular games we are 'suppose' to win, they have won us games as floating 8's, but the margins were usually small, the David and Kevin combo won us those similar kind of games by much bigger/safer margins.
I agree that with time it may be possible, I am definitely not certain. But I would say based on what you've presented that:
a) You quoted two high profile matches in which the opposition did not sit back, so Gundogan and Kevin's counter-attacking passing was probably very good in those games. Against opposition that sit back and defend I think it's less effective to have both. Some people have even noted that last 2 seasons Gundogan has been good in "BIG" games as others have noted, but bad against the parked bus.
b) Other than those two games, and maybe 1 or 2 other games (that I've seen the pair work badly), I think in general when they have played together it hasn't been that great. Somebody will have to look up the times they have played together but I think more often than not it doesn't work out, or the correlation is it works in 'BIG' games only.
That first point is definitely an interesting point of view I hadn't considered. I do think it's somewhat true, but as a compromise I'd say there were plenty of times in those two fixtures where we were completely on the front foot and they both did well during those periods.
The second point though is probably true though. I wouldn't have them down as the perfect pairing true, but personally I do think there's potential for it to improve. I'd like to point out KDB and Bernardo so far haven't looked great together in the middle but I reckon those two will learn to mix it up brilliantly in time.
Just so you're aware of my stance, as I've only been contradicting you so far; I think us having four fit and firing CMs will actually benefit us the most. We did really well earlier this season when the Silvas and Gundogan were being rotated and I think that it meant they all developed together as pairings, kept fit and kept competitive. I genuinely believe that it can work.
I think currently there are two issues:
1) KDB isn't up to speed yet, and it's showing. He hasn't really looked too great in any pairing yet bar some obvious moments of class. And only David Silva really has the ability to manage that kind of extra workload in the middle, and that's only because he's phenomenal.
2) I have to admit, it seems like every game Gundogan is asked to do something different. One game he's deep helping distribute play. The next he's supporting the fullbacks. The next he's a creative player, making runs into the area. Then back to deep. Then he's almost a support striker. Etc etc. And when you think about it, I think he's the only one of our midfield who can really do that; two years ago not one of KDB, David Silva or Bernardo Silva were really playing in the centre midifeld position. And if you've ever seen my other posts you'll have seen how long I think it takes for any player to adapt to such a role. In fact I think the three are all still doing so to some degree. Which means Gundogan is the versatile one.
However, I don't want to make it seem like I'm coming up with TOO many excuses for him. On the one hand I think he's a lot better than people give him credit for, and he's a particularly clever player off the ball as far as I can see. For example, people might say otherwise but I don't think it was an accident he was racking up those passing statistics last March and of recent in the deeper role (same can be said about Zinchenko, not relevant but I wanted a chance to bring it up). And he has a habit of scoring in key games, and playing well in bigger fixtures, which says he has potentially big value.
But at the same time, it's increasingly feeling like we're living off potential. I will admit I wrongly said last season he would displace one of our CMs at some point but that's just how good he can be. But he hasn't been that level of good, not regularly enough at least. It's still a good enough level for me and others, but I can see why it's not for others. Taking into account how good he CAN be combined with apparent irresoluteness in the tackle and I can understand the frustration, even if I disagree.
Maybe I'll be wrong and it just won't quite work. Maybe he's as bad as any other midfielder in history as some on here seemingly insinuate. But I'll try and be optimistic about it. Because why not.
I can get on board with such a conclusion. You've done that thing again where you've used stats and subsequently reason, you pesky non-European ;)Okay So I checked when the two played together last season, actually it was alot of games so I stand corrected. Something I noticed about the results:
1) Kevin and Gundogan together won us our smaller game margins, ie the 1-0, 2-1s etc, the bigger margin games had David and Kevin starting (and possibly Gundogan as an anchor), BUT
2) Kevin and Gundogan started alot of big games together (forget liverpool disaster), and together they beat Arsenal and Tottenham twice, and Chelsea and some Champions league games.
3) Kevin and Gundogan have played with Silva, where Gundogan has anchored both, some of those wins were big games against Tottenham, Arsenal and Champions league. So in those 'big' game wins they both didn't play the floating 8 role.
I think my conclusion after looking at the history is that Kevin and Gundogan can play together as floating 8's in big games where counter attacking is often used, or if David plays and Gundogan plays as an anchor so he is looking towards goal most of the time.
In the more regular games we are 'suppose' to win, they have won us games as floating 8's, but the margins were usually small, the David and Kevin combo won us those similar kind of games by much bigger/safer margins.
I have kind of reconsidered my stance after considering what you said, I replied to your original post again up top, basically I agree I think it works best if:That first point is definitely an interesting point of view I hadn't considered. I do think it's somewhat true, but as a compromise I'd say there were plenty of times in those two fixtures where we were completely on the front foot and they both did well during those periods.
The second point though is probably true though. I wouldn't have them down as the perfect pairing true, but personally I do think there's potential for it to improve. I'd like to point out KDB and Bernardo so far haven't looked great together in the middle but I reckon those two will learn to mix it up brilliantly in time.
Just so you're aware of my stance, as I've only been contradicting you so far; I think us having four fit and firing CMs will actually benefit us the most. We did really well earlier this season when the Silvas and Gundogan were being rotated and I think that it meant they all developed together as pairings, kept fit and kept competitive. I genuinely believe that it can work.
I think currently there are two issues:
1) KDB isn't up to speed yet, and it's showing. He hasn't really looked too great in any pairing yet bar some obvious moments of class. And only David Silva really has the ability to manage that kind of extra workload in the middle, and that's only because he's phenomenal.
2) I have to admit, it seems like every game Gundogan is asked to do something different. One game he's deep helping distribute play. The next he's supporting the fullbacks. The next he's a creative player, making runs into the area. Then back to deep. Then he's almost a support striker. Etc etc. And when you think about it, I think he's the only one of our midfield who can really do that; two years ago not one of KDB, David Silva or Bernardo Silva were really playing in the centre midifeld position. And if you've ever seen my other posts you'll have seen how long I think it takes for any player to adapt to such a role. In fact I think the three are all still doing so to some degree. Which means Gundogan is the versatile one.
However, I don't want to make it seem like I'm coming up with TOO many excuses for him. On the one hand I think he's a lot better than people give him credit for, and he's a particularly clever player off the ball as far as I can see. For example, people might say otherwise but I don't think it was an accident he was racking up those passing statistics last March and of recent in the deeper role (same can be said about Zinchenko, not relevant but I wanted a chance to bring it up). And he has a habit of scoring in key games, and playing well in bigger fixtures, which says he has potentially big value.
But at the same time, it's increasingly feeling like we're living off potential. I will admit I wrongly said last season he would displace one of our CMs at some point but that's just how good he can be. But he hasn't been that level of good, not regularly enough at least. It's still a good enough level for me and others, but I can see why it's not for others. Taking into account how good he CAN be combined with apparent irresoluteness in the tackle and I can understand the frustration, even if I disagree.
Maybe I'll be wrong and it just won't quite work. Maybe he's as bad as any other midfielder in history as some on here seemingly insinuate. But I'll try and be optimistic about it. Because why not.
1) In "BIG" counter attacking games (teams who dont sit back) Gundogan can play as a pivot or floating 8 and he seems to be effective with Kevin
2) In smaller games the pair as floating 8s is noticeably weaker, but Kevin can play anchor in these with Silva and then it seems to work out more often.
It has been on my mind for a while so Im glad we have a forum I can just dump my thoughts and quick googling of stats on. Good discussion, I think I've said just about what I need to about Gundogan, I get oddly defensive about him.I can get on board with such a conclusion. You've done that thing again where you've used stats and subsequently reason, you pesky non-European ;)
Yeah, appreciate the conversation. :)It has been on my mind for a while so Im glad we have a forum I can just dump my thoughts and quick googling of stats on. Good discussion, I think I've said just about what I need to about Gundogan, I get oddly defensive about him.
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Deleted member 81382
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Agreed, passion and rash challenges over natural talent every time for me.In the current squad, I'd put both Foden and even Delph ahead of him.
Neville Kneville
Well-Known Member
Cheers, must have been in the opening 10 as I was distracted at the start of the game, I do recall one that Fernandinho overcooked following a clever run in behind from Gundogan, that wasn't long before Danilo's opener but the suggestion from @Neville Kneville that he stopped making them runs is nonsense. As I pointed out he got on the end of one in the 39th minute, that a nick from a defender took his shot slightly wide of the post and he also combined well with Walker just before the break but his finish was poor from a difficult enough angle.
By all means criticise but be fair, that is my position.
He did largely stop making those runs & the criticism is fair.
One or two in half an hour, does not equal the five or six he made in a short time earlier.
With him basically doing nothing & KDB off his game, Fern had to play on his own for most of the half, not for the first time.
Unacceptable imo.
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