Is Mancini adapting his Inter tactics? [Tactics talk]

okstate99 said:
Time for the brains of this thread to, explain Milners role again. Its exciting times, and cant wait till I see Gerrad, facing, Milner, and Yaya.


Milner's role is to provide balance.

It looks likely that we'll start most games playing a compact midfield, with Milner playing just wide of centre. But Mancini has said time and again that he wants us to be flexible and to be able to easily switch formations in mid game. Milner allows him to do that. With him in the side we can change our shape by making one substitution (eg bringing on Johnson ) and adjusting Milner's position.

We can go 4-3-2-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 depending on the match situation. Milner makes that possible. Whatever formation Mancini chooses to play, Milner makes it easier to implement.
 
I have just seen this thread for the first time (how on earth did I miss it???) and been so engrossed I have read all the way through it from the top. It is quite simply the best thread I have ever seen on Bluemoon.

I can't hope to make a contribution as expert and considered as many on here. Even after supporting City for 44 years, it's clear I am a tactical numpty compared to some of you guys.

But what I would say is I have found it inspirational to get an insight into what Mancini is trying to achieve and what the grand plan is. Just knowing this gives me so much more confidence about how it's all going to come together. I really don't want this to turn into an anti-Hughes post, so please take my next comment on face value. But my biggest beef with Hughes was that I never felt like we had a grand plan, or a system we were trying to play to. It always seemed so random as if players were coming on a doing the best they could based on great individual ability, but they didn't know what the system was, nor how the whole team was supposed to work together. I cried out for a change where we could start to play with some collective understanding.

After reading this today, I am the most optimistic I have ever been in all my 44 years of being a supporter.

Bravo, and a standing ovation to the OP!
 
the--dud said:
My Analysis of Timisoara - Manchester City

First of all - before I get maimed by the anti-Mancini brigade - I realise the opposition weren't great and it's a game we were expected to win.


Formation
We started out with:
Zab---VK---KT--Lescott
--------DJ------------
----Yaya-----Barry----
--------Silva---------
------Ade---Tevez-----

In my opinion this is a Mancini's ideal formation. Sometimes due to opposition a different formation might be called for but I think this is his preferred formation.

On the Romanian TV broadcast they showed Timisoara playing (if I remember correctly) 4-2-3-1 which is a joke. It was fairly obviously they played an ultra defensive 4-5-1. To banks: 4 defenders and 5 midfielders sitting as deep as possible with that lonely striker hardly ever seeing the ball.

Tactics
If you watched the game you seen Mancini constantly urging players to get forward, it was clear to me Mancini wanted us to take the possession but also score goals.
A lot of reports in the papers are making out as if we struggled against them - even going as far as to say we were "treading water, lethargic and uninspiring prior to Balotelli’s 56th minute introduction" which is as much an insult as it is clueless.
IMO we were comfortable and prodding to find an opening.

The problem was that Timisoara were content to defend deep and crowd any player of ours to managed to get the ball in their final 3rd of the pitch.
To our credit we remained confident the goal would come due to our superiour players, possession and technique.

I found it very interesting the substitutions Mancini made.
It's bleeding obviously we were chasing that away goal and anyone who says anything else has no idea about football.
  • Instead of doing a like-for-like Ade-Balotelli sub Mancini took off a (holding) midfielder in Barry and put on a striker in Balotelli. Effectively playing 4-2-3-1. You could even argue it was actually 4-2-1-3!
  • Adam Johnson replaced Silva which means a direct winger on for a more playmaking deeper player.
  • Even after we got the goal when Tevez came off, a totally defensive decision would be to put on Vieira to hold on to the lead, or Richards and move Kompany to DM. He instead put on Jo who's an out and out striker.

Overall Impressions
I think we did well and I can see more paralells to Mancini's Inter team the more games we play this year. It was an assured performance against a tricky opponent when we knew relatively little about the players, managers and the country itself.
A typical fixture where you'd expect City of old to have another embarrasing "typical City" moment.
Also Balotelli will be a fscking City legend...
I'm happy anyway :)

That's a good post. Unfortunately, I didn't get chance to watch the game yesterday, but I hope that you make a similar post after Liverpool.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I really don't want this to turn into an anti-Hughes post, so please take my next comment on face value. But my biggest beef with Hughes was that I never felt like we had a grand plan, or a system we were trying to play to. It always seemed so random as if players were coming on a doing the best they could based on great individual ability, but they didn't know what the system was, nor how the whole team was supposed to work together. I cried out for a change where we could start to play with some collective understanding.

As much as I liked Hughes I always felt this aswell. It was noticable that as soon as Mancini came in we got the ball down and played it out of the back. It was such a simple thing to do but it made a massive difference, of course half our fans started screaming and shouting to "get the bloody ball forward". I was spectical over the closed season as to what Mancini had in mind but having seen us recently Im growing in confidence. I just hope if things dont go well staright away that we stick with it.
 
I think Mancini's plan is to always start cautiously to see how the opposition approaches the game tactically and mentally. Against Spurs we were a bit overwhelmed for the first 20-30 minutes by the way they came at us, meaning we were hanging on for dear life. Once we survived the initial outslaught and Spurs ran out of steam we dictated the tempo and controlled possession in the middle of midfield and look very assured. We didn't create too many chances because in the main SWP, Silva and Tevez all like the ball into feet and we didn't have anyone stretching the back four, until Adebayor's introduction.

There's going to be times when teams pile the pressure on us and we will have to battle but under Macnini we will always have the vast majority of possession and it's upto us to take full advantage of that statistic.
 
dannybcity said:
Chippy_boy said:
I really don't want this to turn into an anti-Hughes post, so please take my next comment on face value. But my biggest beef with Hughes was that I never felt like we had a grand plan, or a system we were trying to play to. It always seemed so random as if players were coming on a doing the best they could based on great individual ability, but they didn't know what the system was, nor how the whole team was supposed to work together. I cried out for a change where we could start to play with some collective understanding.

As much as I liked Hughes I always felt this aswell. It was noticable that as soon as Mancini came in we got the ball down and played it out of the back. It was such a simple thing to do but it made a massive difference, of course half our fans started screaming and shouting to "get the bloody ball forward". I was spectical over the closed season as to what Mancini had in mind but having seen us recently Im growing in confidence. I just hope if things dont go well staright away that we stick with it.
THIS. i thought i were the only one to see this.
it was very frustrating at times.
 
Damocles said:
the--dud said:
My Analysis of Timisoara - Manchester City

First of all - before I get maimed by the anti-Mancini brigade - I realise the opposition weren't great and it's a game we were expected to win.


Formation
We started out with:
Zab---VK---KT--Lescott
--------DJ------------
----Yaya-----Barry----
--------Silva---------
------Ade---Tevez-----

In my opinion this is a Mancini's ideal formation. Sometimes due to opposition a different formation might be called for but I think this is his preferred formation.

On the Romanian TV broadcast they showed Timisoara playing (if I remember correctly) 4-2-3-1 which is a joke. It was fairly obviously they played an ultra defensive 4-5-1. To banks: 4 defenders and 5 midfielders sitting as deep as possible with that lonely striker hardly ever seeing the ball.

Tactics
If you watched the game you seen Mancini constantly urging players to get forward, it was clear to me Mancini wanted us to take the possession but also score goals.
A lot of reports in the papers are making out as if we struggled against them - even going as far as to say we were "treading water, lethargic and uninspiring prior to Balotelli’s 56th minute introduction" which is as much an insult as it is clueless.
IMO we were comfortable and prodding to find an opening.

The problem was that Timisoara were content to defend deep and crowd any player of ours to managed to get the ball in their final 3rd of the pitch.
To our credit we remained confident the goal would come due to our superiour players, possession and technique.

I found it very interesting the substitutions Mancini made.
It's bleeding obviously we were chasing that away goal and anyone who says anything else has no idea about football.
  • Instead of doing a like-for-like Ade-Balotelli sub Mancini took off a (holding) midfielder in Barry and put on a striker in Balotelli. Effectively playing 4-2-3-1. You could even argue it was actually 4-2-1-3!
  • Adam Johnson replaced Silva which means a direct winger on for a more playmaking deeper player.
  • Even after we got the goal when Tevez came off, a totally defensive decision would be to put on Vieira to hold on to the lead, or Richards and move Kompany to DM. He instead put on Jo who's an out and out striker.

Overall Impressions
I think we did well and I can see more paralells to Mancini's Inter team the more games we play this year. It was an assured performance against a tricky opponent when we knew relatively little about the players, managers and the country itself.
A typical fixture where you'd expect City of old to have another embarrasing "typical City" moment.
Also Balotelli will be a fscking City legend...
I'm happy anyway :)

That's a good post. Unfortunately, I didn't get chance to watch the game yesterday, but I hope that you make a similar post after Liverpool.

Thanks bud :) As long as these posts generates some interest I'll keep it up!

Outrun: Do you think we could/should change this post into a general tactics thread? Seems like a lot of people appreciates our ramblings ;)

fatbloke: That's a good point - it's a very Italian tactical thing to do. I do think however if we play teams like Cheltenham in the cup we'll impose ourself from the start and just smash them though.
In a way it's the beauty of Mancini's tactics and our player's versatility; we can change so much without even making a sub - with one sub we can change radically in almost unlimited ways.


I've been saying this to anyone who will lend me an ear (or an eye online) ever since firm rumours happened about our transfer targets this season; just sit back and enjoy blues, don't worry just enjoy this era we're entering!
Insanely rich owners who's very religion bans debt, an incredibly intelligent and able chairman, sensational players, an amazing setup and most importantly a manager (and ex-player) who's done nothing but win.
 
the--dud said:
I've been saying this to anyone who will lend me an ear (or an eye online) ever since firm rumours happened about our transfer targets this season; just sit back and enjoy blues, don't worry just enjoy this era we're entering!
Insanely rich owners who's very religion bans debt, an incredibly intelligent and able chairman, sensational players, an amazing setup and most importantly a manager (and ex-player) who's done nothing but win.

And its funny to hear the pundits flapping how Mancini has no time at all, if he doesnt win now he will be fired by October. Our owners arent idiots, if you fire someone you have to have someone better in mind, right?

And we need some time to set up Roberto, this has been an major overhaul, and he is their first managerial hire, they were stuck with Hughes but gave him a chance. Now is the time for long term outlook.
 
Judging on the one game against Tottenham and a fuzzy image of something in white vs. what looked like people or really big insects, he's trying to play exactly like Barca this year. No more, no less.

The biggest problems so far has been two things imho:

1) Against Spurs (probably due to poor fitness) City didn't press high enough. The key for it to work is to force the opposition into defensive mode with a high possession% and an immediate pressure when you lose the ball to isolate attacks. This has progressively become better during these two games so not to worry.

2) The fullbacks/wingbacks (I'm going with fullbacks since it's all the same these days) are struggling with when to go deep, when to give the passing option and when to defend. The timing of the team as a whole is also naturally fairly poor. I'll have to do this quickly and can't dazzle you with my awesome paint skills or my flawless spelling and grammar, but ideally it should look like this in the build up:

---------------cb--------cb------------
fb------------------------------------fb
-------------------dm------------------
------------cm----------cm------------
am----------------------------------am
-------------------cf-------------------

to this:

---------------cb--------cb------------
----------------------------------------
fb-----------------dm----------------fb
----------cm--------------cm----------
am-----------------cf---------------am

or this:

--------------cb--------cb-------------
----------------------------------------
fb-----------------dm----------------fb
-------------cm---------cm------------
-------am---------cf----------am------

which gives you neat little triangles when moving forward and compressing the team - BUT - when in full attack - one fb should go deep to release one of the am's followed by instant movement from the team (or vice verca), like this:

---------------cb--------cb------------
---------------------------fb---------- (<-- covers left/centre/left cb if counter/flank if passing option)
---------------dm--------------------- (<-- covers right/centre)
---------cm--------cm----------------
---fb----am---cf-------am------------

... and what this does is give crossing/passing options whilst overloading the defensive pairing on either chosen side. As the opposition has to adjust their positions - either of the cm's, the cf, the fb or the am's can run into spaces; essentialy breaking the pattern of play and creating positional chaos. This is all about timing and it hasn't fully clicked yet - mostly because of the fb's - but also because everyone needs to switch tempo at the same moment. As of now City tends to get stuck in the centre and it's because the fb's are too hesitant and the timing isn't there yet, they are still finding their way with this:

--------------cb--------cb-------------
----------------------------------------
fb-----------------dm----------------fb
-------------cm---------cm------------
-------am---------cf----------am------

And that's basically how it works, or should work, in the simplified version. It's of course not as static and there's several way of freeing a player by overloading a position whilst maintaining triangles, but that's the geist of it: you build it up, then overload, build up, then overload. Once in a while you throw a unexpected through ball into the mix when your opponents are waiting for the onslaught (but not too often though cause that would kill the system. Xavi could thread balls all day but he only does it prematurely a few times each game to switch things up, careful not to ruin the "suspense" or the flow of the system).


"Defensive"? It certainly isn't a defensive system but one heavily reliant of literally breaking down your opponents spirit and guide them into an panic mode. There is a point where the players on the opposition find themselves swapping positions one time too many. Running blind on your own creates a sense of isolation with your team - a pitch is a big, empty space for a player and the only way of saying "hi" is to pass or recieve the ball. When you get lonely enough you'll naturally feel compelled to stick with your mates in the clustered defence instead of going at it alone against a solid unit of 10 men doing high fives on the full lenght of the pitch. It's fight or flight and group think 101 and very few players have the tenacity to break that mold.

Mourinho counter acts this (his formula really) by preparing his players for the onslaught before the game and supposedly giving them clear instructions on how to hit them on the counter. He (and others after him) have also been successful mirroring the formation in a purely destructive set up - using the two central midfielders to man mark and kick Xavi and Iniesta off the ball; the striker picks on the dm and his own dm picks up any scraps (followed by a rush on goal by the striker, the am's and cm's). This is why Pep initially opted for Ibra; to have a strong target man that could circumvent the centre triangle/mess (unfortunately for Pep Ibra's first touch and fitness was shit last season and his footballing brain in terms of tactics is the size of a peanut. Mancini solved it by playing the team in a technical 4-3-1-2 and variations of it, but really it was 4-3-1-1 + Ibra, 4-1-3-1 + Ibra and 4-4-1 + Ibra. Pep though is stuck at Rijkaards formula). It's likely also why Mancini has targeted cm's that can deliver a pass AND a gentle elbow if needed; so they wont get bullied off the ball when man marked like Xavi and Iniesta... or Stevie.

As mentioned the formation has remained largely unchanged [for Barca] since Rijkaard (thank you internet for the pic):

formation.gif




This is how the team set up against the Spurs:

--------------De Jong--------------
---------Yaya--------Barry--------
Swp----------Tevez----------Silva

After the Johnson sub:

--------------De Jong--------------
---------Yaya--------Barry--------
Johnson-------Tevez---------Silva

After Ade sub:

--------------De Jong--------------
---------Yaya--------Barry--------
Johnson-------Ade-----------Silva


And against Timisoara we saw:

--------------De Jong--------------
---------Yaya--------Barry--------
Tevez----------Ade----------Silva

After the first two subs:

--------------De Jong--------------
---------Yaya--------Tevez--------
Johnson--------Ade--------Balotelli

(the goal came when Johnson took a run to the left and him and Mario was about to switch sides. Tevez added more punch to the cm)

After Tevez sub:

--------------De Jong--------------
---------Yaya--------Jo-----------
Johnson--------Ade--------Balotelli


Some extremely "defensive" formations in other words... (dot, dot, dot)

(About the "wingers" and where Silva play etc: both am's can switch with each other and the cf. Against Timisoara Balotelli and Johnson switched several times and we saw the same thing with Silva and Swp/Johnson against the Spurs. At times Silva was even playing cf with Carlos on the left and Swp on the right. This is not a manager directive but something they have the freedom to do by themselves. There IS a front three however - it's just that the switching creates an illusion)
 

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