Is Mancini adapting his Inter tactics? [Tactics talk]

[Ducado]

The guy is a proven winner, and has shown he has a good tactical mind, I guess a lot is down to how you study your opponents, I beleive Woy got it wrong last night in believing all the hype about our defence been poor, so went out to attack, lets hope they are running the rule over our next few opponents

Great discussion by the way, I have never read such in depth analyses on any other forum

 

[okstate99]

The guy is a proven winner, and has shown he has a good tactical mind, I guess a lot is down to how you study your opponents, I beleive Woy got it wrong last night in believing all the hype about our defence been poor, so went out to attack, lets hope they are running the rule over our next few opponents

Great discussion by the way, I have never read such in depth analyses on any other forum

A candidate for classic and sticky threads.

Ric should post a link to this thread on forums of future opponents asking what style we play.

 

[MCFCinUSA]

haven't had time to read this thread yet, and might not get the time to, but figured I'd pop this in here (sorry if it has been put up earlier):-

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/08/23/man-city-3-0-liverpool-hodgsons-4-4-2-completely-outplayed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/08/23/ ... outplayed/</a>

and I've just one technical question which never really occurred to me until I thought about this just now, does anyone know how they derive the data on the Tevez chart?

how the heck do all his passes and this data (for every player) get translated into digital information?

I'm just curious - anyone shed any light on it?

(surely there isn't someone furiously clicking away and logging every single match action by hand for every match played in the league, or is there????)

 

[Damocles]

I honestly believe that Liverpool setup without even thinking about how we would play. Hodgson has his own problems to deal with at Anfield and he's too long in the tooth to think that he could come and dominate here when we're famous for playing 3 DMs. He probably also knew that our danger comes from our width, and with the defensively poor Johnson at RB and the concussed CB Agger at LB, we'd hit them hard.

I imagine that his 4-4-2 was used simply to get his team used to playing the system and play to the crowd a little. I cannot forsee a single situation whereby he thought that the 4-4-2 was the way to play against us, it's one of the biggest tropes in footy, more midfielders = more possession = dominate game. Hell, he didn't even play any width in his 4-4-2 to try and stop our wingers or attack our second choice and third choice fullbacks. He put out a narrow team, forcing them to watch us pass through them.

The 4-4-2 isn't completely broken away from home. If you close the two banks of four and keep them tight, it can be an awfully good defensive formation. The problem though, was Gerrard always hoping to get forward to the point of indiscipline, and their lack of threat out wide. Kuyt and Jovanovic were hardly in the game at all.

 

[nick.nikky]

"We are not out of the woods yet, but the scenery is lovely" would be my overall assessment of yesterday.

Here's what I wrote ahead of and during the game in the "starting team" thread:

Most of Liverpools play goes through the right via Johnson, Gerrard and Kuyt with 8 out of 9 passes into the box against Arsenal before Cole's send off coming in from the right. After Cole's send off the passes in the last 2/3:rds was a stunning 59% on the right to 10% on the left. Similar trends can be seen in May against Chelsea (or United or Arsenal), albeit under a different manager, the play tends to go through the right.

So, killing that line of attack with Milner/Barry/De Jong/Lescott would effectively kill most of what Liverpool has to offer and then it's up to Johnson/Tevez/Yaya/Richards to pick the defense apart on the other flank. The balance of the game will depend on whether City's left can cope better with Liverpool's right than vice verca...

On the surface it may seem defensive, but it's actually a very balanced line up: pick em apart on the left and destroy them on the right. Easy peasy.

-- Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:16 pm --

There you go... 1-0.

Perfectly played by Roberto. 0 crosses on the left and everything on the right by Liverpool. The one (was it?) attack on the left was from Torres.

For City... murder on AJ's flank...


2:nd half prediction:

Roy to fix his left side by moving Torres there (zzz).

Depending on what he does Roberto will make a substitution early. Moving Tevez to the right and bringing on Adebayor in the centre would be a good guess.

What's interesting is that there was a crystal clear intent throughout the whole game in smothering one flank and opening up the other. In the second we saw a different Liverpool. Roy made some adjustments: Torres moved to the left, Gerrard and Kuyt cut angles across the pitch; and the team began feeding balls to Agger and Jovanovic (they also began to double teaming the possession on the same flank to sway City from trying), exploiting the line up's

Richards----------Toure----------Kompany-----------Lescott
-------------------De Jong---------Barry---------------------
----------------------------Yaya-----------------------------
Johnson--------------------Tevez---------------------Milner

mirrored weakness in Johnson, Richards and De Jong - the latter having problems gaining possession with a meager 2-0 in tackles/interceptions compared to 9-2 for Barry, 8-2 for Milner, 4-3 for Yaya, 5-1 for Richards etc. The stats hides a bit of truth though since it 1) was in his job description to cover the centre when Barry killed the left 2) Richards complete inability to position himself properly that tends to (again) feed the problem.

(Quick on Micah - it's quite shocking for a defender not to gather a single interception during two whole games and with this he's unique in the team. If you compare it with Tevez on 7-9 in tackles and 5 interceptions you could even argue that Micah with his 9-9 in tackles and 0 interceptions is worse at gaining possession than the centre forward. And for the sake of Micah, let's not dwell on how he compares with Barry, Milner, Yaya, Toure, Lescott, Kompany and Toure... What Micah did do very well though is the wingback work which is probably why Mancini gave him the nod, but, the right is currently almost as big a weakness as Liverpool's left and we can expect some experimentation like we saw with the 4-2-1-3 formation yesterday in order to fix it. Do not be alarmed if De Jong gets sat on the bench when Micah's on, or if Zabaleta gets the nod against lesser teams. Etc. This is not the finished item and it's within the managers prerogative to sort it.)


Summing up: why shouldn't we feel comfy yet?

- This was an exploit in Liverpool's defence that was used to City's full advantage. Liverpool is ridiculously tilted at the moment and dependant on Cole or Gerrard to feed the left. Yesterday they somewhat fixed it in half time but it's a huge disadvantage to them like City's right was against Tottenham. In the 1st they constantly tried, almost obsessively, to get something going on the right but was smothered. This was their flaw which City used and says more about the current state of Liverpool than it does about City. Don't get me wrong... it was still a perfectly played game and many teams or managers wouldn't have exploited it as ruthlessly, but it wont be that easy against a more balanced side. It should also be noted that Roy looked disgusted with himself in the 1st half and probably knows he should have properly pulled the trigger on it before the game - the old fart in the stands wont do the same mistake as Roy did.

- Again with the fullbacks. The possession is not deep enough and it's mostly because of them. In my other post in this thread I wrote a short bit on triangle development and how the team needs to progressively develop into attack - and although we've come a bit since then - we are still stuck in a early stage of development. Mancini touched on the subject in the post game interview when he praised Lescott and added something like "well, he's good but not a fullback so you can't expect yada yada" and that's pretty much where we're at. On one flank there's Lescott doing the best he can and on the other there's Micah who's maybe not a 100% in either going forward or defending. The result is not devastatingly poor, but we lose those few vital yards that's the difference between a "ok" attack and a scary one. A lot of what's happening there will depend on moments of brilliance until it's sorted and we might see it improve in stages beginning with Bridge's return. For Chelsea however, the issue needs to be fixed or Mancini has to figure out a way to deal with them accordingly. It worked yesterday and will continue to work against teams not in the upper echelon (or as with Liverpool - missing important pieces of the puzzle), but in the long run City will pay for it. It's only a matter of time before a manager does what Roy did in the 2nd yesterday and you wouldn't want that scenario against a squad that has the depth to back their manager's intent.


The chalkboard plays tricks on you cause you'll have to pass your way out of a situation when you've gained poss etc, but you should be able to see what I'm talking about:

 

[the--dud]

(First off I have to say that Damocles analysis above is superb!)

My Analysis of Manchester City - Liverpool

Formation
We started out with:
MR---VK---KT--Lescott
-----------DJ-----------
----Yaya-----Barry----
AJ----------------Milner
--------Tevez----------

I know a lot of people will disagree (including the official site live match coverage but I think this is more correct ;)
People were going nuts when the line-up appeared online, saying it was far too defensive and we would get destroyed. At the end of the day Mancini showed once again that there's a reason he's picking up silly money managing City. The "3 DM brigade" was out in force but Mancini was vindicated again.
There's one DM in that formation, with two "normal" midfielders (or box-to-box if you want to get fancy).
The reason I didn't put DJ and Barry in line with Yaya in front is because DJ played much further back. DJ played his usual game as the anchor man, but due to Liverpool sitting so deep at times it was easy for him to push forwards at times. Barry and Yaya both defended and attacked, covering a lot of ground. You could argue Yaya was slightly more advanced but I feel this would be splitting hair.

Essentially the most important aspect of the formation is that it brutally exploits Hodgon's preferred narrow and quite defensive 4-4-2. He played this formation almost religiously at Fulham and he did last night as well. Mancini actually used the same formation last year due to our lack of attacking/creative midfielders. The theory is that you can contain the play in harmless areas (outside the box), the problem of course is you need someone like Hangeland to head away any crosses and intercept cheeky through-balls. Which Liverpool didn't have!

I see last night formation as very Barcelona-esque, even to the point that one winger was more advanced and trickery. My specs aren't that blue-tinted that I'm saying AJ is as gifted as Messi but AJ was a lot more direct than Milner in my opinion. Milner was brilliant as well though.

Tactics
I'll organise this in 4 sections as I want to cover it properly.

Back line:
Richards was obviously told be FOCUSED and concentrate which I think is why he had arguably his best game in a good while. He moved forward when we had possession to help support our attacks. Effectively overloading LFC's right hand side, often causing the rather hapless Agger to get drawn wide so AJ could cut inside with the ball.
I also think Mancini felt that Lescott could struggle to contain Liverpool's left sided players, it's only natural he can't offer as much going forward as Kolarov as he's a centreback by nature.

The three midfielders:
As I mentioned above I think DJ played as the deepest of the three, doing his unappreciated mammoth job per usual. As always he protects the back line, sniffs out and breaks up attacks before they become a real danger.
Barry and Yaya was just a power duo, moving forward at will. Always looking to support attacks but yet being fully aware of their defensive duties. Barry along with DJ was always willing to cover for full backs going forward, which is a vitally important job.
Out of all Mancini's games for us, this is the most dynamic I've seen the centre midfield trio. It was brilliant to watch!

The two wingers:
Mancio was well aware that Agger isn't a natural left back, and put AJ out to run directly at him causing havoc. He was just brilliant with his mazy direct running with the ball. Another aspect of him taking on Agger like he did is that the rest of the back line has to shift side ways to cover the space he leaves - this of course creates space and insecurity in the centre.
As Johnson is actually a quality full back it proved wise to use Milner as he can move freely being a very intelligent and workman like player. By this I mean we weren't "wasting" possession with our right winger taking on Johnson and losing the ball. We still had a right winger and he made a terrific contribution but a totally different animal to what AJ was doing against the much weaker Agger.

Tevez:
It's been mentioned before and I really like the term "fake no 9". Essentially he played in the position of a no 9 but not in the style of a no 9. Tevez was much more instrumental than many gives him credit for against Liverpool. I actually lost count of the times he dropped deep (but not too deep!) to collect the ball, spin around and either pass it forward or wait for players to get forward. He looked hell-bent on not losing the ball, it was glued to his feet. When Tevez goes further up the pitch he caused a ripple effect - if you like - with Lucas and the two central defenders. They are so aware of him, they know he's dangerous so they instantly have to commit two or three players to shadow him. This creates space in other areas!

Overall Impressions
Mancini tactically outclassed a fellow ex-Inter manager! Woy just didn't have a reply. We kept possession due to dominating the midfield. Lucas was atrocious and Gerrard's willingness to go forward actually worked against him. Us sitting with three players versus these two proved to be an easy contest.
I have to say however that the two wide mids for Liverpool also had shocking games, which was perfect for us with AK47 and Boateng being injured.

One thought I had after the game was it showed rather beautifully how possession should be won above the half-way line but possession is GAINED in the area occupied from De Jong and backwards. This is vital as all confident and patient passing/possession oriented football teams will exploit this fact to frustrate the opponent and dictate play/tempo.
Which we did brilliantly! :)

 

[persvenality cult]

next league fixture is an interesting test.

sunderland line up in a similar way to spurs, 4-4-2 but with pace down the wings.
so far Bruce has used Richardson as an extremely attack minded left back combining with Malbranque;

• Onuoha-Bramble-ANOTHER----------
  --\/--------------------------Richardson
  --------Cattermole-Henderson
  Al-M'madi---------------Malbranque--
  ----------Bent----Campbell

Onuoha has also been given license to get well forward. Obviously he can't play, but I would imagine there will be other changes, not least because they lost at w/brom. Al-Mohammadi appears to have barely got a touch in recent games.

It would be surprised to see Bruce risk Al-M'madi on the right and Richardson in an attacking LB role. Perhaps he will think that Richardson and Malbranque might overwhelm our right side, but it's just as likely to go the other way. More likely he'll play defenders in the full back roles, Richardson at LW and Malbranque more central, or on the right. They will probably still have more pace and width than Liverpool.

Another reason I'm intrigued by this game is that Sunderland away was one of our poorest away performances under Mancini. We went behind to an early header from Jones, and only salvaged a draw thanks to AJ's brilliant last minute curling shot. In between, we barely got going. In particular our right side combination of Richards and SWP, had absolute shockers.

Bruce played Ferdinand at Left back and Richardson ahead of him. The effect was that SWP bounced around without ever getting control of the ball, and Micah ran into trouble time after time. Richardson and Malbranque didn't get that advanced down the wing but they were able to win it back and build from their, time after time.

Will Bruce do the same again? Surely You'd think he wouldn't risk Richardson against AJ, who would relish taking on another CB playing on the left, having given Agger the run around, but Ferdinand is right footed so getting inside him might be a tough job.

I'm not sure it's that important. Look at the full city line up and the real reasons we struggled become a bit clearer;

• Richards-Kompany-Lescott-Bridge
  ------Zabaleta-NDJ-Barry
  SWP-----------------------Bellamy
  --------------Tevez

not so bad on paper, but by 9 minutes we were behind, by 33 Bridge had to go, and SWP/Micah were struggling BADLY. we changed to;

• Richards-Kompany-Lescott-Zabaleta
  -----------NDJ---Barry
  SWP-----------------------Bellamy
  --------------Tevez
  --------------RSC

the left side started to work better, Zab made some progress. then around the hour mark Richards, then SWP got the hook and it became;

• ----Kompany-Lescott-Zabaleta---
  ---------------NDJ
  --------Viera-------Barry
  --AJ-----------Tevez-----Bellamy
  ---------------RSC

by the end we had created quite a few chances.

look at that first line up, imagine that SWP and Micah are flailing about, Bridge is struggling badly, Bellamy and Tevez are quiet. There is no creativity there in midfield at all. You stick on RSC and he looks very rusty.....

Hopefully this time, we will have many more creative midfield options, and two strikers on the subs bench who could change the game. But to keep a foothold in the game, we have to do a lot better on the flanks than we did that time. I'll be honest, last night, the fullbacks did okay, but no better. Richards is still uncomfortable when pressed. For me, I would not play him away from home at this stage. The big advantage we have this time, is Milner, who can play an all action role on either flank or in the centre. I'd put AJ on the left, with Milner as back up, and Zab overlapping.

something like;

• Zabaleta--Toure-Kompany-Bridge/Lescott
  -----------------NDJ
  -------------Yaya---Barry
  -------AJ-----------------Milner
  ---------------Ade/Tevez

against what will probably be;

• 
  ?????----Mensah-Bramble--Ferdinand
  -------Cattermole---Henderson
  Malbranque----------------Richardson
  ----------Bent-----Campbell

The alternative would probably be Richardson cutting in on the right.

on paper, I'd say we might see a similar outcome to last night, our midfield could over run the modest talents of Cattermole and Henderson, but, I repeat, it depends on the fullbacks coping with their wingers and pushing out to create the width and "the triangles" (c.f. nikk). As there is likely to be little attacking threat from their fullback positions, I'd think this will be quite achievable.

whatever happens, take heart from the fact that confidence and patience are in short supply in the hinterlands;

Originally Posted by Pete B View Post
I'm going for Man City to set a new scoring record; scoring so many the ref loses count and Sky Spirts need a new font to get the numbers on the screen. I'm also going for 4 of our players not to touch the ball at all in the 90 minutes

Read more: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=518431&page=4#ixzz0xYwo0FLT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread ... z0xYwo0FLT</a>

 

[Damocles]

Agree with most of the above.

However, one of the biggest pluses in our favour yesterday was how narrow Liverpool played which allowed us to use our wingers to great effect, even with less than fullbacks.
Against Sunderland, we will have no such luxury, and Malbranque/Richardson will be bombarding our full backs at every opportunity in wide positions.

Due to this, I'm expecting SWP on the right instead of Johnson who can help Richards more, or possibly as you suggest Zab and Johnson. If you look at Toure and Kompany comparatively against Spurs (who did us down the flanks) and Liverpool (who played very narrow), against Spurs they were dragged over to the wings much more regularly which meant that the whole midfield had to move back to cover.

If we do keep Johnson/Richards together, expect a flatter midfield with Barry keeping on eye on Malbranque and Toure keeping one eye on Richardson, possibly allowing a bit more freedom to our wingers to slot in and help out Tevez.

 

[Ric]

Agree with most of the above.

However, one of the biggest pluses in our favour yesterday was how narrow Liverpool played which allowed us to use our wingers to great effect, even with less than fullbacks.
Against Sunderland, we will have no such luxury, and Malbranque/Richardson will be bombarding our full backs at every opportunity in wide positions.

Due to this, I'm expecting SWP on the right instead of Johnson who can help Richards more, or possibly as you suggest Zab and Johnson. If you look at Toure and Kompany comparatively against Spurs (who did us down the flanks) and Liverpool (who played very narrow), against Spurs they were dragged over to the wings much more regularly which meant that the whole midfield had to move back to cover.

If we do keep Johnson/Richards together, expect a flatter midfield with Barry keeping on eye on Malbranque and Toure keeping one eye on Richardson, possibly allowing a bit more freedom to our wingers to slot in and help out Tevez.

I'd be surprised if Mancini felt the need to change the team against Sunderland. I expect them to line up in a fairly similar 4-4-2 formation to that employed by Liverpool, and Malbranque (in particular) and Richardson (to a lesser extent) aren't really out and out wingers. More similar to Kuyt and Jovanovic than Lennon and Bale, if you like.

 

[persvenality cult]

Agree with most of the above.

However, one of the biggest pluses in our favour yesterday was how narrow Liverpool played which allowed us to use our wingers to great effect, even with less than fullbacks.
Against Sunderland, we will have no such luxury, and Malbranque/Richardson will be bombarding our full backs at every opportunity in wide positions.

Due to this, I'm expecting SWP on the right instead of Johnson who can help Richards more, or possibly as you suggest Zab and Johnson. If you look at Toure and Kompany comparatively against Spurs (who did us down the flanks) and Liverpool (who played very narrow), against Spurs they were dragged over to the wings much more regularly which meant that the whole midfield had to move back to cover.

If we do keep Johnson/Richards together, expect a flatter midfield with Barry keeping on eye on Malbranque and Toure keeping one eye on Richardson, possibly allowing a bit more freedom to our wingers to slot in and help out Tevez.

I'd be surprised if Mancini felt the need to change the team against Sunderland. I expect them to line up in a fairly similar 4-4-2 formation to that employed by Liverpool, and Malbranque (in particular) and Richardson (to a lesser extent) aren't really out and out wingers. More similar to Kuyt and Jovanovic than Lennon and Bale, if you like.

I think the point is that Liverpool rely heavily on the overlap on their right flank. Last night, we put Milner, Barry and Lescott on that side and attacked down the right.

without Onuoha, Sunderland don't have a RB who can get forward. They will probably only have a very raw RW, or a more general attacking player... So we'd have three hard working, defensively able players lined up against a defensive CB and a crap RW. surely we'll be able to sacrifice some defensive ability on the left for more creativity/width/pace in attack.... which is what we will need if they play with 4 CB's and park the bus (unlike liverpool who came forward with gay abandon)

Okay, I give up.... analysing the past is one thing, second guessing the future is something else.