Is Mancini adapting his Inter tactics? [Tactics talk]

[the--dud]

nick.nikky: That's a brilliant post and I don't wanna come across as slagging you off when you obviously put a lot of time into posting - I have to disagree on one small point though.

We might play quite similar to Barca in terms of patience, build-up and controlling posession but I don't think we play the same formation.
Barca play with wingers who cuts in very often to merge into strikers or even playmakers.
They also have two central playmakers in Xavi and Iniesta.

From what I've seen so far we play a diamond midfield with Silva being the key as he's the tip of the diamond. Yes Silva can drift wide or even play as a winger. I think he's been given a free-role in line with the classic diamond midfield of Argentinian football.

I think you're right though, we did play the same formation as Barcelona against Spurs but I agree we were push too far back by their frantic pressure and urgency. Our fitness wasn't too good either.

Against Timisoara I think you've misinterpeted the shape of the attacking three, no offence of course.
When we played Ade-Tevez-Silva in my opinion Silva was sitting deeper whilst Ade and Tevez were strikers. Ade as the upper-most striker to hold up the ball and annoy the opposition defenders, with Tevez dropping deeper.
With AJ-Ade-Tevez-Mario I think we played quite a strange formation as we were desperate for a goal. Not sure it has a name...
------DJ----Yaya--------
---(big space here)----
AJ-----Tevez-------Mario
---------Ade-------------
That's what I saw anyway :)
Lastly I would say:
------DJ----Yaya--------
AJ-------Jo--------Mario
---------Ade-------------

I totally agree about the fluidity of the attacking players and I don't think it's a manager instruction either. Just the players trying to naturally find space and not crowd the same area...

Your spot on about the Fullbacks running forward, triangles, movement and different types of pressure to expose and tire your opponent, much better explaining it than I could ever do! I very much enjoyed reading those sections. First class bud...

 

[nick.nikky]

nick.nikky: That's a brilliant post and I don't wanna come across as slagging you off when you obviously put a lot of time into posting - I have to disagree on one small point though.

We might play quite similar to Barca in terms of patience, build-up and controlling posession but I don't think we play the same formation.
Barca play with wingers who cuts in very often to merge into strikers or even playmakers.
They also have two central playmakers in Xavi and Iniesta.

From what I've seen so far we play a diamond midfield with Silva being the key as he's the tip of the diamond. Yes Silva can drift wide or even play as a winger. I think he's been given a free-role in line with the classic diamond midfield of Argentinian football.

I think you're right though, we did play the same formation as Barcelona against Spurs but I agree we were push too far back by their frantic pressure and urgency. Our fitness wasn't too good either.

Against Timisoara I think you've misinterpeted the shape of the attacking three, no offence of course.
When we played Ade-Tevez-Silva in my opinion Silva was sitting deeper whilst Ade and Tevez were strikers. Ade as the upper-most striker to hold up the ball and annoy the opposition defenders, with Tevez dropping deeper.
With AJ-Ade-Tevez-Mario I think we played quite a strange formation as we were desperate for a goal. Not sure it has a name...
------DJ----Yaya--------
---(big space here)----
AJ-----Tevez-------Mario
---------Ade-------------
That's what I saw anyway :)
Lastly I would say:
------DJ----Yaya--------
AJ-------Jo--------Mario
---------Ade-------------

I totally agree about the fluidity of the attacking players and I don't think it's a manager instruction either. Just the players trying to naturally find space and not crowd the same area...

Your spot on about the Fullbacks running forward, triangles, movement and different types of pressure to expose and tire your opponent, much better explaining it than I could ever do! I very much enjoyed reading those sections. First class bud...

Cheers and no worries mate, opinions are what we're here for. That and the self produced homoerotic footage Ric keeps sending to everyone (it grows on you).


I don't agree with some of your points but I wouldn't bet any money that we didn't play a diamond previous to the two subs at the Timo... romanians game. I was still fighting with my stream so it may very well have been a tactical change by Mancini and something I missed in all the blur.

Maybe I could sway you to the dark side on the post Silva subs if you watch the movement on Balotellis goal?

http://www.mcfc.co.uk/Video/Match-highlights/Timisoara-v-City-highlights (@5.12)

 

[the--dud]

nick.nikky: That's a brilliant post and I don't wanna come across as slagging you off when you obviously put a lot of time into posting - I have to disagree on one small point though.

We might play quite similar to Barca in terms of patience, build-up and controlling posession but I don't think we play the same formation.
Barca play with wingers who cuts in very often to merge into strikers or even playmakers.
They also have two central playmakers in Xavi and Iniesta.

From what I've seen so far we play a diamond midfield with Silva being the key as he's the tip of the diamond. Yes Silva can drift wide or even play as a winger. I think he's been given a free-role in line with the classic diamond midfield of Argentinian football.

I think you're right though, we did play the same formation as Barcelona against Spurs but I agree we were push too far back by their frantic pressure and urgency. Our fitness wasn't too good either.

Against Timisoara I think you've misinterpeted the shape of the attacking three, no offence of course.
When we played Ade-Tevez-Silva in my opinion Silva was sitting deeper whilst Ade and Tevez were strikers. Ade as the upper-most striker to hold up the ball and annoy the opposition defenders, with Tevez dropping deeper.
With AJ-Ade-Tevez-Mario I think we played quite a strange formation as we were desperate for a goal. Not sure it has a name...
------DJ----Yaya--------
---(big space here)----
AJ-----Tevez-------Mario
---------Ade-------------
That's what I saw anyway :)
Lastly I would say:
------DJ----Yaya--------
AJ-------Jo--------Mario
---------Ade-------------

I totally agree about the fluidity of the attacking players and I don't think it's a manager instruction either. Just the players trying to naturally find space and not crowd the same area...

Your spot on about the Fullbacks running forward, triangles, movement and different types of pressure to expose and tire your opponent, much better explaining it than I could ever do! I very much enjoyed reading those sections. First class bud...

Cheers and no worries mate, opinions are what we're here for. That and the self produced homoerotic footage Ric keeps sending to everyone (it grows on you).


I don't agree with some of your points but I wouldn't bet any money that we didn't play a diamond previous to the two subs at the Timo... romanians game. I was still fighting with my stream so it may very well have been a tactical change by Mancini and something I missed in all the blur.

Maybe I could sway you to the dark side on the post Silva subs if you watch the movement on Balotellis goal?

http://www.mcfc.co.uk/Video/Match-highlights/Timisoara-v-City-highlights (@5.12)

Cool cool :) I think we could discuss this forever actually as we're playing so fluidly with players changing positions so often it can give anyone a headache trying to represent it with static formations.

Our "argument" really comes down to if you see one striker with two wide-men drifting into space - or one striker plus a second striker with a free-role plus a central play-maker on an even freer role...
Everthing else we're basically in agreement!

 

[MCC]

I hope he is adapting his previous tactics...

"Mancini however inherited a Fiorentina plagued by financial worries. Despite this he managed to win the Coppa Italia on his first occasion as manager"

"In May 2002, five months after leaving Fiorentina, Mancini was appointed manager of Lazio in 2002. Again however he was restricted by financial worries with key players such as Hernan Crespo, Alessandro Nesta being sold and players forced to take a 80% pay cut. In his first season though he took Lazio to the semi-finals of the UEFA Cup before being knocked out by his successor at Inter, Jose Mourinho's Porto. Success came however when he led his Lazio side to win the Coppa Italia in the 2003–2004 campaign,"

"Internazionale Milano season. In his debut season (2004–2005) he won the club's first trophy in seven years"

"In 2005–2006 Mancini again won the Italian Cups and an Italian Super Cup and won the Scudetto, the first for Inter in 16 years."

"Furthermore, Inter with Mancini as manager went on a record-breaking run of 17 consecutive victories in Serie A"

 

[Gencix]

at the end of the second half, city equal to the Mourinho's Inter or Germany and Holland in the last world cup,always 4-2-3-1

Inter:

.........Cambiasso......Motta...........
...................Sneijder..................
....Eto'o.........................Balotelli..
...................Milito......................

Germany:

.........Schweinsteiger.........Kedyra...........
................................Ozil.....................
......Mueller.............................Podolsky..
.........................Klose.........................

Holland:
...........VAN BUYTEN....De Jonk............
.....................Sneijder.......................
.....Robben.........................Kuyt........
......................Van Persie.................

City:
..............Yaya...........DeJonk...............
.......................Tevez........................
....Johnson.........................Balotelli....
......................Adebayor....................

this is perfect for extending defenses too close behind, and find some 'space

 

[MCC]

at the end of the second half, city equal to the Mourinho's Inter or Germany and Holland in the last world cup,always 4-2-3-1

Inter:

.........Cambiasso......Motta...........
...................Sneijder..................
....Eto'o.........................Balotelli..
...................Milito......................

Germany:

.........Schweinsteiger.........Kedyra...........
................................Ozil.....................
......Mueller.............................Podolsky..
.........................Klose.........................

Holland:
...........VAN BUYTEN....De Jonk............
.....................Sneijder.......................
.....Robben.........................Kuyt........
......................Van Persie.................

City:
..............Yaya...........DeJonk...............
.......................Tevez........................
....Johnson.........................Balotelli....
......................Adebayor....................

this is perfect for extending defenses too close behind, and find some 'space

DeJonk or Michel Vonk?

 

[persvenality cult]

three phases to the timisoara game as I saw it;

1st 30. Soak them up. Probably went OTT and failed to push out enough.

2nd 30. Speed up the tempo. Forwards burst into life and got a bit of support. Also note the long balls from Hart and others, for Ade's runs round the back. Isolate the attackers, get everyone else chasing back at full pelt. Stretch the team, tire them out, and then...

3rd 30. Keep the ball, take advantage of the additional time in midfield to pick out the spaces. Also run at the tired legs.

A bit careless not to score 2 or 3, IMO.

 

[BobbyLazarus]

For all of my time as a supporter, I've been a bit of a ball watcher. Excitement is goal mouth action, a great through ball, a player going past opponents. You can get great enjoyment without knowing too much about how football actually works. It's why the Premier League has such bankable appeal worldwide. After our summer signings and watching the Valencia friendly, I decided I need to understand what is going on on the field if I'm going to enjoy Mancini's City. Did some internet trawling and then found this thread.
Thanks to all contributors for the beginning of my education.
Looking forward to Monday night even more now. Even I can spot the rigid two banks of four in Woy's teams so it will be great to see how it plays out.
Hugely disappointed that Kolarov and Boateng are injured. These guys seem key to 'Plan A' - with us having to change our approach a fair bit if they are missing.

 

[Shaelumstash]

VS LIVERPOOL
We obviously played a different shape in this game than many are expecting us to play for the majority of the season. I think the lack of any fit natural attacking full backs dictated that Mancini had to use a more traditional 4-3-3 come 4-5-1 with more width coming from midfield.

We absolutely dominated the midfield, and Yaya Toure and Barry's performance should once again put to bed any press notion that we play with 3 Defensive Midfielders. De Jong held, Barry was slightly further forward to his left, and Yaya even more further forward to his right.

................................HART
RICHARDS.......KOLO..............KOMPANY..........LESCOTT
..............................DE JONG
...........................................BARRY
........................YAYA
JOHNSON....................................................MILNER
...............................TEVEZ

Last night was a classic example of how a 4-3-3 can dominate possession against a 4-4-2. Because our central 3 were staggered, they could pass the ball around the flat Gerrard and Lucas and completely dominate possession. Tevez dropping deep gave us another option.

Not only did we dominate the middle of the park, Mancini also was very clever in his use of the wide players. When they announced the starting line up I and a lot of other around me groaned thinking it was a defensive 4-5-1. Using Johnson and Milner wide against Liverpool though was a masterstroke.

Liverpool's main creative threat is obviously Gerrard, and by flooding the midfield we squashed his influence. Glen Johnson is probably Liverpools next most creative player, by pushing Milner right up on him, it meant Glen Johnson was always on the back foot and didn't get the opportunity to overlap and cause us problems. Similarly, playing AJ high up against a full back who is clearly a Centre Half filling in meant we had loads of joy down that side.

That's the best I've seen Barry for City, he read the game and used the ball fantastically well. Yaya almost played as an attacking midfielder, I hope he has put to bed the myth that he is just a midfielder spoiler now. AJ and Milner were both fantastic, and Kompany was flawless. It's actually hard to pick out a sub standard performance. Bravo the players, and double Bravo for Mancini as he got the shape absolutely spot on for the opponent on the night.

 

[Damocles]

We played the Inter shape that I keep banging on about, and I predict that this will be his formation for the rest of the season. Mancini is a huge believer in forcing passing diamonds through tactics, and his midfield setup seems to confirm this:

------------De Jong----Barry--------------
-----------------Toure--------------------
Johnson------------------------------Milner
----------------Tevez----------------------

The above is the more defensive structure which is how we setup immediately at the start of the game, despite the commentator telling people that we used a diamond, then named 5 players in that diamond.

However, when going forward if all goes well we should end up with:

---------------------De Jong----------------
Richards------------Barry------------Lescott-
---------------Toure----Tevez---------------
-----Johnson------------------Milner----------

Again, it's all about passing diamonds. The Barry goal was a direct result of a passing diamond between Milner, Johnson, De Jong and Toure

I'll admit something now, as far as I'm concerned, Carlos Tevez is the absolute best false 9 striker in the world. I don't mean he's as good as Rooney, Torres, Villa, etc. I mean that he has no equal in that role, he is so far above everybody else in the world that it is almost laughable. He is absolutely vital to this system of play and the team is built around his abilities. Milner, Johnson, Silva and Balotelli fit perfectly into this system that he creates.

The genius of Tevez is apparent once you think of how exactly you stop him. Tevez creates space by causing confusion and a general nuisance of himself. He will drop way, way deeper than most others, will drift into channels, etc. He's a bit like a kid, he'll go exactly where he is needed and the ball currently is. Due to this, you can't have a defender following him as he'd leave a gap. However, if Tevez gets the chance to have some space then turn and run at the defence, you have the problems of Tevez, Milner and Johnson all screaming forward, all able to beat their man, and all able to lay off great passes to each other. So, you can't have a defender sit off of him either. As Liverpool found out last night, in a 4-4-2 against him, you're fucked.
Many try the defensive midfielder tactic, and put a man in behind to stop him. Again though, this creates another problem in that the other City midfielders and the oncoming full backs then create their passing diamonds using the extra man and Tevez will hold his man off using strength. How many times have we seen him backing into a player and making a nice touch to a City shirt? So you don't really stop him this way, just control him. Then you have the other problem that playing a defensive mid means that you are only playing a single striker who then has to contend with Barry/De Jong in midfield and Toure/Kompany in defence who should really be able to control him enough.

The question here though, is what if another false 9 is played against us, and we are facing like for like? The answer in this is De Jong and Barry playing together, who should use a tagging system whereby they can hand him off to each other on an as and when basis just as they did yesterday concerning getting forward. They seemed to both get forward at different times whilst the other stayed back, it didn't seem particularly organised but more likely it's a "whoever is further forward goes to support the attack" type thing.

Toure is the weirdest midfielder you'll ever see. He's a ball winning midfielder who actually plays a bit further up the field. He's Makelele behind the strikers. Mancini has always believed in a system of football that harks back to the total football of the Dutch and in particularly how Barca play with their tica-taca style. However, he's mixing this with the English spirit and determination, and the Italian organisation and defence. The point is, if you watch Barca play, one of the great things about them, is when they lose the ball they don't all turn around and charge back; they win many balls at the top end of the field because they stay where they were and defend in the opposition's half. This is one of the points of Toure being there, the other being his ability to distribute the ball well.

So, why did we win last night?

Simple really, the difference was Milner, Barry and Agger. Agger is certainly not a left back, and Jovanovic did almost nothing to help him. Richards did a good job of supporting Johnson who exploited the fact that the LB wasn't a LB and kept going onto his weaker foot.
I have a feeling that when Kolarov is fit, Balo will probably play on the left where Milner was and he'll move into the Toure role. Having a weaker left back in Lescott who wasn't great going forward meant that we needed both Barry and Milner to contain Johnson and Kuyt defensively, then run with the ball into attack.
Finally, Barry played out of his skin and he really did a good job of controlling the transition between defence and attack that all those pundits keep espouting about.

Not too sure what to expect against Timosara formation wise as I don't know their team, but I imagine that it will be some variation on the above.