Is Mancini adapting his Inter tactics? [Tactics talk]

[Damocles]

Okay, I give up.... analysing the past is one thing, second guessing the future is awesome fun.

Fixed that one for you matey :)

 

[philinho]

How on earth do you know/see all this stuff?

This might explain why I'm poor on FM, even with City!

 

[nick.nikky]

next league fixture is an interesting test.

sunderland line up in a similar way to spurs, 4-4-2 but with pace down the wings.
so far Bruce has used Richardson as an extremely attack minded left back combining with Malbranque;

• Onuoha-Bramble-ANOTHER----------
  --/--------------------------Richardson
  --------Cattermole-Henderson
  Al-M'madi---------------Malbranque--
  ----------Bent----Campbell

Onuoha has also been given license to get well forward. Obviously he can't play, but I would imagine there will be other changes, not least because they lost at w/brom. Al-Mohammadi appears to have barely got a touch in recent games.

It would be surprised to see Bruce risk Al-M'madi on the right and Richardson in an attacking LB role. Perhaps he will think that Richardson and Malbranque might overwhelm our right side, but it's just as likely to go the other way. More likely he'll play defenders in the full back roles, Richardson at LW and Malbranque more central, or on the right. They will probably still have more pace and width than Liverpool.

Another reason I'm intrigued by this game is that Sunderland away was one of our poorest away performances under Mancini. We went behind to an early header from Jones, and only salvaged a draw thanks to AJ's brilliant last minute curling shot. In between, we barely got going. In particular our right side combination of Richards and SWP, had absolute shockers.

Bruce played Ferdinand at Left back and Richardson ahead of him. The effect was that SWP bounced around without ever getting control of the ball, and Micah ran into trouble time after time. Richardson and Malbranque didn't get that advanced down the wing but they were able to win it back and build from their, time after time.

Will Bruce do the same again? Surely You'd think he wouldn't risk Richardson against AJ, who would relish taking on another CB playing on the left, having given Agger the run around, but Ferdinand is right footed so getting inside him might be a tough job.

I'm not sure it's that important. Look at the full city line up and the real reasons we struggled become a bit clearer;

• Richards-Kompany-Lescott-Bridge
  ------Zabaleta-NDJ-Barry
  SWP-----------------------Bellamy
  --------------Tevez

not so bad on paper, but by 9 minutes we were behind, by 33 Bridge had to go, and SWP/Micah were struggling BADLY. we changed to;

• Richards-Kompany-Lescott-Zabaleta
  -----------NDJ---Barry
  SWP-----------------------Bellamy
  --------------Tevez
  --------------RSC

the left side started to work better, Zab made some progress. then around the hour mark Richards, then SWP got the hook and it became;

• ----Kompany-Lescott-Zabaleta---
  ---------------NDJ
  --------Viera-------Barry
  --AJ-----------Tevez-----Bellamy
  ---------------RSC

by the end we had created quite a few chances.

look at that first line up, imagine that SWP and Micah are flailing about, Bridge is struggling badly, Bellamy and Tevez are quiet. There is no creativity there in midfield at all. You stick on RSC and he looks very rusty.....

Hopefully this time, we will have many more creative midfield options, and two strikers on the subs bench who could change the game. But to keep a foothold in the game, we have to do a lot better on the flanks than we did that time. I'll be honest, last night, the fullbacks did okay, but no better. Richards is still uncomfortable when pressed. For me, I would not play him away from home at this stage. The big advantage we have this time, is Milner, who can play an all action role on either flank or in the centre. I'd put AJ on the left, with Milner as back up, and Zab overlapping.

something like;

• Zabaleta--Toure-Kompany-Bridge/Lescott
  -----------------NDJ
  -------------Yaya---Barry
  -------AJ-----------------Milner
  ---------------Ade/Tevez

against what will probably be;

• 
  ?????----Mensah-Bramble--Ferdinand
  -------Cattermole---Henderson
  Malbranque----------------Richardson
  ----------Bent-----Campbell

The alternative would probably be Richardson cutting in on the right.

on paper, I'd say we might see a similar outcome to last night, our midfield could over run the modest talents of Cattermole and Henderson, but, I repeat, it depends on the fullbacks coping with their wingers and pushing out to create the width and "the triangles" (c.f. nikk). As there is likely to be little attacking threat from their fullback positions, I'd think this will be quite achievable.

whatever happens, take heart from the fact that confidence and patience are in short supply in the hinterlands;

Originally Posted by Pete B View Post
I'm going for Man City to set a new scoring record; scoring so many the ref loses count and Sky Spirts need a new font to get the numbers on the screen. I'm also going for 4 of our players not to touch the ball at all in the 90 minutes

Read more: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=518431&page=4#ixzz0xYwo0FLT" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread ... z0xYwo0FLT</a>

Two thumbs up for that interesting analysis.



I'm with Ric on the formation but I agree with pretty much everything else. I feel like we're going to see more of the 4-2-1-3 unless Mancini feels comfortable moving Yaya or Milner into the De Jong slot in the 4-1-2-3. Micah is currently simply too poor to be playing without a proper back up (and Zab offers too little as a wingback) so Mancini might feel as if his hand is a bit forced there - the 4-2-1-3 being a acceptable and fairly proven fix with the current squad. Does not surprise me in the slightest that it was SWP/Micah who was involved in the mess last year and a lot of Micah's future on the rb can possibly/probably be determined in how Mancini choses to set up his side against "lesser" teams: is he confident in Micah's ability to cover his flank? Truth be told Micah could possibly have been packing if Mancini had another 100M to spend. Being able to play cb and relative youth is what will keep him in the squad if he fails to improve.

Lescott on the other hand is quite possibly an even bigger safety hazard with his distribution, so Milner on the left probably makes sense for now, or at least against stronger opposition.


I wouldn't mind this small modification though and I wouldn't be terribly shocked if it materialized in some form or function:

Richards-----Toure-------Kompany------Lescott
----------------Yaya-------Barry----------------
----------------------Milner---------------------
Johnson/Balotelli-----Tevez--------Silva/Balotelli

or

Richards-----Toure-------Kompany------Lescott
---------------Milner-------Barry----------------
----------------------Yaya-----------------------
Johnson/Balotelli-----Tevez---------Silva/Balotelli

Roberto already has three ams/wingers in Silva, Johnson, Swp (five counting Balotelli and Tevez) so Milner on the flank is/was strictly temporary until he can move him to the centre. Without knowing too much about Sunderland I agree it makes sense to add a bit more punch to the left now that the threat of Johnson/Gerrard/Kuyt/Torres isn't an issue and moving Milner to the centre could solve more than one problem. 2+2 makes... Easy enough to alter it to a 4-1-2-3 as well.

Also agree that what we saw against Liverpool may be a sign of how Milner could be used in the future, it's not all that improbable we will see him moving to either side depending on what flank Mancini feels needs some defensive weight. A straight swap Milner > De Jong and either am > Milner would give us both stability and versatility until the fullbacks return. I.e:

Richards-----Toure-------Kompany------Lescott
---------------Milner-------Barry----------------
----------------------Yaya-----------------------
Johnson/Balotelli-----Tevez---------Silva/Balotelli

becomes

Richards-----Toure-------Kompany------Lescott
---------------De Jong-----Barry----------------
----------------------Yaya----------------------
Milner/AJ/Balotelli-----Tevez----Milner/Silva/Balotelli



Mancini said in the latest interview that Milner was the first player he wanted but the last to finalize. When you look at the options he gives Mancini it's easy to understand why. Admittedly I'm a bit ignorant on everything English football that doesn't include City or the top clubs, but if he keeps playing like he did against Liverpool he could easily become the tactically most important player Mancini has brought in during this window and a life saver in the current situation. The Sunderland game and how Mancini uses Milner could tell us a lot about how the team will look in future games and make predictions easier.

 

[1.618034]

haven't had time to read this thread yet, and might not get the time to, but figured I'd pop this in here (sorry if it has been put up earlier):-

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/08/23/man-city-3-0-liverpool-hodgsons-4-4-2-completely-outplayed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/08/23/ ... outplayed/</a>

and I've just one technical question which never really occurred to me until I thought about this just now, does anyone know how they derive the data on the Tevez chart?

how the heck do all his passes and this data (for every player) get translated into digital information?

I'm just curious - anyone shed any light on it?

(surely there isn't someone furiously clicking away and logging every single match action by hand for every match played in the league, or is there????)

They track players (and the ball and referee) using dedicated video cameras and software which locks on to each player and tracks them throughout the game. A bit like in PES or similar I guess..? No doubt there are analysts who go through the data afterwards to put the finer details in too, but that's basically how they get the data. It's also how Prozone works, which can track the distance/speed that each player moves... I think.

 

[Brwned]

I'm interested to know why some regard the formation you play as a 4213? Not saying it's wrong, it's just I've never really seen it as a regular formation, especially not at club level. Wilson had said it's the coming formation but he used examples of Arsenal and Barcelona which were a bit off the mark I felt, Brazil under Menezes were the first I've seen use it.

It's just that the two league games City have played this season certainly haven't seemed to be 4213 to me, SWP and Milner were playing a role that encouraged too much tracking back for it to be a front three, and Silva and Johnson naturally drift inwards and play off the striker rather than ahead of him from a starting position, I thought.

I'm not really sure what you'd describe it as though, because it's hard to specify where Toure played. I know ZM among many other people have put him down as the furthest forward midfielder to the extent that he's the 1 in a 4213 or 4231, but I don't think he was quite that high up - average position[1] has him in a fairly traditional midfield trio and the Chalkboard[2] has him doing similarly. I like specifics but I think people try to overanalyse things a lot nowadays to make things seem more complex than they really are, when we play a midfield three we generally play a simple equilateral midfield triangle, as do Chelsea, whereas I think a 4231 is more of an isosceles and most obvious with how Liverpool played it. I think City are closer to us and Chelsea than Liverpool, I must say. I do understand the irony in moaning about overanalysis and then talking about triangle types, mind.

That being said I think City are going to be the most tactically interesting team in the top half, it's very rare to see three midfielders like Barry, De Jong and Toure all play at the same time, even against top teams, and as a consequence to see Tevez play such an exaggerated version of the false nine, and further than that it seems to me that Mancini's going to be very tactically flexible which is always good to see.

[1] - <a class="postlink" href="http://soccernet.espn.go.com/gamecast?id=293044&page=features&cc=5739&league=ENG.1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://soccernet.espn.go.com/gamecast?i ... ague=ENG.1</a>
[2] - <a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/ww2my77W2WbXtnce7H91" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chal ... bXtnce7H91</a>

 

[Damocles]

Average position and heat map on ESPN show the picture, as does his heat map on the Guardian. He was actually closer to Tevez's position than he was to De Jong or Barry's. Besides, you know that the charts don't always tell the overall picture of the game, and after watching the game against Liverpool on a replay earlier I still thought that he's the furthest forward of the midfielder. He certainly seemed to play in front of the natural line of a normal CM

 

[MCFCinUSA]

haven't had time to read this thread yet, and might not get the time to, but figured I'd pop this in here (sorry if it has been put up earlier):-

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/08/23/man-city-3-0-liverpool-hodgsons-4-4-2-completely-outplayed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/08/23/ ... outplayed/</a>

and I've just one technical question which never really occurred to me until I thought about this just now, does anyone know how they derive the data on the Tevez chart?

how the heck do all his passes and this data (for every player) get translated into digital information?

I'm just curious - anyone shed any light on it?

(surely there isn't someone furiously clicking away and logging every single match action by hand for every match played in the league, or is there????)

They track players (and the ball and referee) using dedicated video cameras and software which locks on to each player and tracks them throughout the game. A bit like in PES or similar I guess..? No doubt there are analysts who go through the data afterwards to put the finer details in too, but that's basically how they get the data. It's also how Prozone works, which can track the distance/speed that each player moves... I think.

cheers Fibo, I never knew any of that... next time I'm at a match I'll be looking around!

(and I was wondering if the players wore some sort of transmitter but couldn't figure out how that would know or combine with what the ball was doing - unless the ball was chipped too, which we know of course it isn't. Makes a mockery of the current state of refereeing and the ruling bodies not employing some of this technology for the more obvious and blatant cheating that goes on - at least at the higher levels of the game where it's available)

 

[Brwned]

Average position and heat map on ESPN show the picture, as does his heat map on the Guardian. He was actually closer to Tevez's position than he was to De Jong or Barry's. Besides, you know that the charts don't always tell the overall picture of the game, and after watching the game against Liverpool on a replay earlier I still thought that he's the furthest forward of the midfielder. He certainly seemed to play in front of the natural line of a normal CM

No absolutely, I wasn't arguing against that, that's why I made the comparsion between triangles. There's still three points, with one at the head of the point, but in a 4231/4213 the head of the point is considerably further away from the bottom two points. I should stop talking rubbish.

Basically, I see it more as:
Tevez
Milner Johnson
Toure
Barry De Jong

Rather than:
Tevez
Milner Toure Johnson
Barry De Jong

Or even:
Milner Tevez Johnson
Toure
Barry De Jong

Let's look at it another way: first, would you describe Lampard as the furthest forward midfielder in the three? If yes, would you say that when Chelsea play a three is it a 4231 or a 433?

I think a three man midfield doesn't necessarily mean they're all playing on the same lines.

 

[Andouble]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7rytIqg9C0[/youtube]

 

[MCFCinUSA]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7rytIqg9C0[/youtube]

cheers for posting that!