Is Mancini adapting his Inter tactics? [Tactics talk]

MCFC 4 EVER said:
Damocles said:
cibaman said:
Last year Mancini restricted the physical demands on Yaya and Silva. This year he'll expect more from them.

Yaya was signed as a box to box player but would have struggled to carry out that role effectively in his first year in the PL. Hence he was given a "half way line to box" role. This season he'll probably drop back into Barry's position but will still be expected to get forward (noticeably he scored the cup final winner 2 mins after Barry had been subbed and Yaya had droppped back).

Silva will play more centrally, in the position occupied by Yaya last year. He'll still drift out wide at times but most of our play will go through him.

Those two changes will allow Mancini to play an extra attacker in most matches.

No he wasn't, Mancini himself said he wanted him because he saw him play attacking midfielder at Monaco and Olympiakos.
Spot on Damocles, everyone says that Robbie signed him as a defensive or box to box midfielder but in reality Yaya was a playmaker at Metalurg, Monaco and Olympiakos

I don't actually think that's true. I'm sure Yaya himself commented throughout the season that is has taken him some time to get used to the position as he hasn't playe dit before.<br /><br />-- Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:49 pm --<br /><br />This about covers it:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/p6_2_7659_versatile-yaya-toure-leads-city-to-f-a-cup-and-champions-league-qualification.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.adifferentleague.co.uk/p6_2_ ... ation.html</a>

Very interesting to see Ya Ya's quote about preferring the holding midfielders role. Maybe it will happen.
 
MCFC 4 EVER said:
Damocles said:
cibaman said:
Last year Mancini restricted the physical demands on Yaya and Silva. This year he'll expect more from them.

Yaya was signed as a box to box player but would have struggled to carry out that role effectively in his first year in the PL. Hence he was given a "half way line to box" role. This season he'll probably drop back into Barry's position but will still be expected to get forward (noticeably he scored the cup final winner 2 mins after Barry had been subbed and Yaya had droppped back).

Silva will play more centrally, in the position occupied by Yaya last year. He'll still drift out wide at times but most of our play will go through him.

Those two changes will allow Mancini to play an extra attacker in most matches.

No he wasn't, Mancini himself said he wanted him because he saw him play attacking midfielder at Monaco and Olympiakos.
Spot on Damocles, everyone says that Robbie signed him as a defensive or box to box midfielder but in reality Yaya was a playmaker at Metalurg, Monaco and Olympiakos

Okay I'll admit that "yaya was signed as a box to box player" isnt something that RM actually told me. But I still think that this season we'll see him start in a deeper position but be expected to get forward. Its the logical progression, both for him and Silva. Occasionally (possibly on Sunday) we'll revert back to last seasons line up with Barry in the side, but more often we'll try to play an extra attacker.
 
If you look at the players we have, it's almost obvious that we're going to play in a really heavily Italian approach. For me, Yaya Toure is probably the give away (as well as the inside forwards). He will play as a box-to-box or an analogous loosely define attacking midfielder.

The 4-2-3-1 will be the sort of formation we need to get bang on. It will be crucial.
 
I haven't watched all the pre-season but on the evidence I have, the emergent formation is 4-3-1-2

-------------Hart
Richards-Kompany-Lescott-??????
--------De Jong/Barry
----Yaya/JM--------JM/Barry
-------------Silva
--------Aguero---Balo/Dzeko

The rear-most midfield three are configured slightly differently than last year. Yaya is deeper. Milner takes up position equivalent to Barry but makes more runs forward. And De Jong is pushed up a bit, he seems to be pressing and playing higher up the pitch. Silva is taking up the classic trequartista role. The CFs can close down the back line, and at least one is dropping back to close down in the midfield. Silva can apply pressure additional pressure in their half of the pitch. This means the 'Yaya' can drop back, the 'Barry' (especially if it's Milner) is also making more box-to-box runs. But the 'De Jong' is still freed up slightly to sweep up in midfield, rather than just in front of the back four. If you play Barry there, he might be free to be more of a regista than a screener.

So everyone changes slightly. Yaya isn't playing in the Barry role, or 'Box-to-Box' *whatever that means this week*, he's playing a fairly orthodox role familiar from many 4-3-3's, right-central-midfield.

The changes do place the athleticism of the two more advanced midfield roles at a premium. If he was intending to field this formation regularly, I have a feeling that Mancini would want another genuine central player in order to rotate and retain the physical edge.

The elephant in the room is last pre-season. We regularly lined up in a somewhat similar diamond formation. It was never used in a competitive match.

Really I find it very hard to relate Mancini's tactics into the familiar concepts of 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1. Everyone is either completely between the lines (often operating in a reverse of the usual 'between the lines' role (a la Yaya last year, your usual AM starts either starts fairly deep and moves up, or sits in the hole, or attacks the flanks... Yaya did the opposite of all these things), or operating in various spaces in what seems like a free role but probably is highly orchestrated(Silva). It still looks a little disjointed to me, but even so, you can see how the power and durability of the team is being maximised.
 
Looks to me that we are indeed going towards the WW formation as previously discussed...

eg


-------------Hart------------

----Kompany-----Lescott-------

------------De Jong---------

Richards---------------Kolarov

--------Yaya-------Milner----

-------------Silva------------

------Aguero---------Balo----


Kinda. Within the limits of the page format and as roughly average positions. The full backs now give us a lot of the width when going forward so almost play ahead of NDJ...


But at the risk of repeating myself, I thought I'd post this article from earlier in the thread as a reminder as it explains it for the uninitiated..



<a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/oct/26/the-question-barcelona-reinventing-w-w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/20 ... enting-w-w</a>

The Question: Are Barcelona reinventing the W-W formation?

To counter teams who sit deep, Barça push both full-backs up the pitch – echoing the 2-3-2-3 formation of the 1930s

Football is a holistic game. Advance a player here and you must retreat a player there. Give one player more attacking responsibility and you must give another increased defensive duties. As three at the back has become outmoded as a balanced or attacking formation – though not as a defensive formation – by the boom in lone-striker systems, coaches have had to address the problem of how to incorporate attacking full-backs without the loss of defensive cover.

For clubs who use inverted wingers, as Barcelona do, the issue is particularly significant. For them, the attacking full-back provides not merely auxiliary attacking width but is the basic source of width as the wide forwards turn infield. The absence of an Argentinian Dani Alves figure in part explains why Lionel Messi has been less successful at national level than at club level. For Barcelona, as he turns inside off the right flank, Alves streaks outside him, and the opposing full-back cannot simply step inside and force Messi to try to use his weaker right foot. Do that, and Messi nudges it on to Alves. So the full-back tries to cover both options, and Messi then has time and space to inflict damage with his left foot.

It is the same if Pedro plays on the right flank, and the same when David Villa plays on the left. Barcelona's wide forwards are always looking to cut inside to exploit the space available on the diagonal, and that is facilitated if they have overlapping full-backs. Traditionally, if one full-back pushed forwards the other would sit, shuffling across to leave what was effectively a back three.

Barcelona, though, often have both full-backs pushed high, a risky strategy necessitated by how frequently they come up against sides who sit deep against them. With width on both sides they can switch the play quickly from one flank to the other, and turn even a massed defence. They still, though, need cover in case the opponent breaks, and so Sergio Busquets sits in, becoming in effect a third centre-back.

That, of course, is not especially new. Most sides who have used a diamond in midfield have done something similar. At Shakhtar Donetsk, before they switched to a 4-2-3-1, Dario Srna and Razvan Rat were liberated by Mariusz Lewandowski dropping very deep in midfield. At Chelsea, Luiz Felipe Scolari would often, when sketching out his team shape, include Mikel John Obi as a third centre-back. And Barcelona themselves had Yaya Touré dropping back to play as a centre-back on their run to the Champions League trophy in 2008-09.

What is different is the degree. It is not just Barcelona. I first became aware of the trend watching Mexico play England in a pre-World Cup friendly. Trying to note down the Mexican formation, I had them as four at the back, then three, then four, then three, and I realised it was neither and both, switching from 4-3-3 to 3-4-3, as it did during the World Cup.

Ricardo Osorio and Francisco Rodríguez sat deep as the two centre-backs, with Rafael Márquez operating almost as an old-fashioned (by which I mean pre-second world war) centre-half just in front of them. Paul Aguilar and Carlos Salcido were attacking full-backs, so the defence was effectively split into two lines, a two and a three. Efraín Juárez and Gerardo Torrado sat in central midfield, behind a front three of Giovani dos Santos, Guillermo Franco and Carlos Vela. The most accurate way of denoting the formation, in fact, would be 2-3-2-3: the shape, in other words, was the W-W with which Vittorio Pozzo's Italy won the World Cup in 1934 and 1938.

Of the same species as Pozzo

Pozzo first latched on to football while studying the manufacture of wool in Bradford in the first decade of the last century. He would travel all around Yorkshire and Lancashire watching games, eventually becoming a fan of Manchester United and, in particular, their fabled half-back line of Dick Duckworth, Charlie Roberts and Alec Bell. All centre-halves, he thought, should be like Roberts, capable of long, sweeping passes out to the wings. It was a belief he held fundamental and led to his decision, having been reappointed manager of the Italy national team in 1924, immediately to drop Fulvio Bernardini, an idol of the Roman crowds, because he was a 'carrier' rather than a 'dispatcher'.

As a result, Pozzo abhorred the W-M formation that his friend Herbert Chapman, the manager of Arsenal, developed after the change in the offside law in 1925, in which the centre-half – in Arsenal's case Herbie Roberts – became a stopper, an 'overcoat' for the opposing centre-forward. He did, though, recognise that in the new reality the centre-half had to take on some defensive responsibilities.

Pozzo found the perfect player for the role in Luisito Monti. He had played for Argentina in the 1930 World Cup but, after joining Juventus in 1931, became one of the oriundi – those South American players who, thanks to Italian heritage, qualified to play for their adopted country. Already 30 when he signed, Monti was overweight and, even after a month of solitary training, was not quick. He was, though, fit and became known as Doble ancho (Double wide) for his capacity to cover the ground.

Monti became a centro mediano (halfway house) – not quite Charlie Roberts but not Herbie Roberts either. He would drop when the other team had possession and mark the opposing centre-forward, but would advance and become an attacking fulcrum when his side had the ball. Although he was not a third back, he played deeper than a traditional centre-half and so the two inside-forwards retreated to support the wing-halves. Italy's shape became a 2-3-2-3, the W-W. At the time it seemed, as the journalist Mario Zappa put it in La Gazzetta della Sport, "a model of play that is the synthesis of the best elements of all the most admired systems", something borne out by Italy's success.

Footfalls echo in the memory

To acknowledge that modern football's shape at times resembles the 1930s, though, is not to repeat Qohelet, the author of Ecclesiastes, and lament the futility of a world without novelty: "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, 'Look! This is something new'? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time." Nor is it to argue that tactics are somehow cyclical, as many bewilderingly do.

Rather it is to acknowledge that fragments and echoes of the past still flicker, reinvented and reinterpreted for the modern age. Like Mexico, Barcelona's shape, at least when they use only one midfield holder, seems to ape that of Pozzo's Italy. Those who defend three at the back argue that, to prevent the side having two spare men when facing a single-striker system, one of the centre-backs can step into midfield, to which the response is few defenders are good enough technically to do that, and why not just field an additional midfielder anyway? What Barcelona and Mexico have done is approach the problem the opposite way round, using a holding midfielder as an additional centre-back rather than a centre-back as an additional midfielder.

But the style of football is very different. It is not just that modern football is far quicker than that of the 30s. Barcelona press relentlessly when out of possession, a means of defending that was not developed until a quarter of a century after Pozzo's second World Cup. In the opening 20 minutes at the Emirates last season when Barcelona overwhelmed Arsenal, the major difference between the sides lay not in technique but in the discipline of their pressing.

Inverted wingers, similarly, would have been alien to Pozzo: Enrique Guaita and Raimundo Orsi started wide and stayed wide, looking to reach the byline and sling crosses in. Angelo Schiavio was a fixed point as a centre-forward – no dropping deep or pulling wide for him. The two wing-halves, Attilio Ferraris and Luigi Bertolini, would have been too concerned with negating the opposing inside-forwards to press forward and overlap.

Nonetheless, the advantages of the W-W for a side that want to retain possession, the interlocking triangles offering simple passing options, remain the same. Having Busquets, the modern-day Monti, drop between Carles Puyol and Gerard Piqué is not just a defensive move; it also makes it easier for Barcelona to build from the back. Against a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1, Busquets can be picked up by a deeper-lying centre-forward or the central player in the trident, which can interrupt Barcelona's rhythm (just as sides realised after Kevin Keegan had deployed Antoine Sibierski to do the job, that – counterintuitively – Chelsea could be upset by marking Claude Makélelé); pull Busquets deeper, though, and he has more space to initiate attacks.

There is a wider point here, which relates to notation. Looking at reports from the early 70s, it seems bizarre to modern eyes that teams were still listed as though they played a 2-3-5, which had been dead for the best part of 70 years. Yet that, presumably, was still how journalists and their readers thought. Future generations may equally look at our way of recording formations and wonder how we ever thought it logical that a team playing "a back four" could feature fewer defensive players than a team playing "a back three".

We understand that full-backs attack and that in a back four the two centre-backs will almost invariably play deeper than their full-backs, but the formation as we note it does not record that. Barcelona tend to play a 4-1-2-3 or a 4-2-1-3, according to our system of notation; heat maps of average position, though, show it as a 2-3-2-3. Barcelona, like Mexico, play a W-W, but not as Pozzo knew it.



Also...

<a class="postlink-local" href="http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194840" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194840</a>


Good bump btw.
 
1.618034 said:
Looks to me that we are indeed going towards the WW formation as previously discussed...

eg


-------------Hart------------

----Kompany-----Lescott-------

------------De Jong---------

Richards---------------Kolarov

--------Yaya-------Milner----

-------------Silva------------

------Aguero---------Balo----


Kinda. Within the limits of the page format and as roughly average positions. The full backs now give us a lot of the width when going forward so almost play ahead of NDJ...


But at the risk of repeating myself, I thought I'd post this article from earlier in the thread as a reminder as it explains it for the uninitiated..

.


that the usual mancini's inter 4-4-2 diamond midfield mate.
 
He's never played the diamond in a competitive match at city, that I can remember. Actually, I think he did in an early cup replay last year, and, as someone alluded to above, in last years friendlies
 
1.618034 said:
Looks to me that we are indeed going towards the WW formation as previously discussed...

eg


-------------Hart------------

----Kompany-----Lescott-------

------------De Jong---------

Richards---------------Kolarov

--------Yaya-------Milner----

-------------Silva------------

------Aguero---------Balo----


Kinda. Within the limits of the page format and as roughly average positions. The full backs now give us a lot of the width when going forward so almost play ahead of NDJ...

Good bump btw.

The final third is loosely define though isn't it? Balo is often delegated to a complete forward role often drifting wide or spearheading attacks. Silva has almost complete creative license. He's the omnipresent supportive option who'll look to instigate play.
Aguero may have an analogous role to Balo but may have the option of exploiting the gap in front of defence. He'll combine with Silva's almost trequartista role.

Defensively the formation becomes very different. we usually fall into a 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 depending on the fielded personnel. One of the forwards (usually Balo) will fall into the midfield.

It certainly isn't going to be a clear exclusive formation that we can be summed up by.

I also wouldn't say it's an imitation of barca due to many reasons.

- The fullbacks are almost solely a flank feed/channel option. They're not expected to work inwards elaborately (unlike dani alves).

- The system depends on a forward staying upfront centrally to convert feeds from flanks or spearhead attacks.

- defensive system is completely different. We fall back into a cohesive unit. This also means that counter-attack initiations can be offered in an instant (E.G. Yaya Toure).

When we get the 'milner replacement' (I.E. Nasri, Mata etc...), you'll see how we could be likened to Inter.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
He's never played the diamond in a competitive match at city, that I can remember. Actually, I think he did in an early cup replay last year, and, as someone alluded to above, in last years friendlies
There has to be a good chance of that changing this season as it looks very much like we will be playing with two strikers a lot of the time.
 
by wilson's definition i dont see our defensive tactic as a w, yet. that may change eventually, but as the media myth was 'too defensive' throughout last season, not enough teams were genuinely frightened of us. if we become known as more attacking, perhaps rip some teams apart, then we will be shown greater respect, sides will set up defensively, and our natural reaction to that should be a more attacking outlook to break them down. i expect the midfield triangle to invert, with a subtle manipulation of the 3 roles in it. otherwise, as you were. a greater understanding of mancini's tactical vision by this nation's scribes would help.. i expect the midfield triangle to invert, with a subtle manipulation of the 3 roles in it. otherwise, as you were. a greater understanding of mancini's tactical vision by this nation's scribes would help.
 

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