Very nice discussion going over the night, many interesting points.
I rewatched the first 35 minutes of the Valencia game yesterday night, together with some part of the second half. It was very obvious, like someone stated, that we didn't play with an AM and two strikers. We played with "2 AMs" and one striker:
I don't know if the word AM is correct, since they are much more offense based than an AM. Silva and Tevez played behind Adebayor.
I tried to find some logic in all their runs, but it left me banging my head against the board. There seemed to be no rules whatsoever how they run. One minute Tevez was on the left, next minute Silva was there. As we've seen of Tevez, he likes to take the free role to a whole new level, running everywhere he wants (no wrong with that, works for him!), so I think Silva acted as a left side striker while Tevez just ran both left and right in a free role. But we were very narrow.
It worked fine when the ball was on their right saide, because then both Tevez and Silva were there. But as soon as Valencia crossed the ball over to the other side, it was totally empty. This wasn't a problem then because Yaya just ran up quickly to put pressure on them, but hopefully teams won't exploit this. And I think when we'll learn the tactics better as a team, we'll be better to keep positions. But, from reading the training reports, they seem to spend tons of time on learning how to position themselves, so Mancini knows it.
In the second half Johnson and SWP went on, and then we really extended our wingers. They acted as true wingers, being far out on both sides, while Adebayor stayed in the middle. No free roles like Silva and Tevez had. I think Mancini knows they're not capable of that so he lets them play wingers. It was a bit similar to last year and Hughes, but the difference is that neither Johnson or SWP had to track back. They followed the opposition through the half way line, but then they stopped running. The midfielders and defenders took over from there.
ultimateharold said:
I think Kolarov and Boateng will be key. Within 5 mins of Richards and Boateng switching on Sat he'd exploited that space left by having a middle 3 and whipped in one of the finest crosses seen at CoMS. Richards always likes to get forward but doesn't have that ability to put a decent cross in.
Kolarov as we've seen from videos likes to burst forward too.
Yes, that's probably why he tried to put Richards as a central defender against Valencia. He knows he's a huge talent, like we all do, but he's just not good enough going offense. What I hated, re-watching the game, was that he didn't run back to defend. Jogged back. I think it's vital for this formation to work, because if the full backs leave their sides exposed (out of lazyness) opposition can exploit that.
Say whatever you want about Brazilians but Maicon always ran back to defend, even if he may not have been the best defender out there (if I remember correctly). But, with the help from a CM, they won't be exposed and may not need to be a world class tackler. But it's a bonus if they are, of course.
the--dud said:
Presumably Milner has a decent cross on him as he was originally a wide midfielder?
But I agree, crosses will probably come from the attacking fullbacks.
Then again a narrow diamond formation would naturally play more through the centre. AND our height is more at the back - at the front there's Silva, Tevez and possibly Robinho at times.
About covering for fullbacks: I think the two central midfielders might cover at times. It wouldn't actually leave us short as Boateng is higher up and the midfielder is deep. Over all there will still be roughly the same amount of players in the same area?
About AJ: I don't personally think Mancio will play the 4-3-1-2 all the time. If you again look at what he played at Inter (and before that even) he very often played a 4-4-2 with advanced/attacking wingers (sometimes two defensive mids). To be honest I haven't followed Mancini closely enough to say WHY he played 4-4-2 in certain games. Perhaps you know Outrun?
My point about AJ is that AJ/SWP could get a fair bit of game time when we need width. We also know from last season that Mancini will not shy away from changing formation at any time in any game when he feels it's required.
If you sub AJ/SWP for De Jong/Barry/Milner/Y.Toure you can simply swap Silva to the left and end up with basically a 4-4-2 :)
Or you can actually swap one of the central mids for a left back - push Kolarov forward as he can play left mid and put Silva at right mid.
Milner can cross but I don't think he'll get that far out on the sides to put in a good cross. That's the full back's job, as you say. If a midfielder drifts out too far it leaves the middle exposed.
"Over all there will still be roughly the same amount of players in the same area?"
It will, but I'd like to have Yaya involved higher up. We all know what a fantastic shot he has and the dribbling capabilities he has. It would be a waste to have him standing far back everytime Boateng goes forward.
I have no idea why he played 4-4-2, I think it depends on the opposition's tactics rather than their table position. But from what I remember Zanetti took left midfield while Stankovic did right. Both capable of playing midfielders in 4-3-1-2. Johnson isn't that fluent to change to "CM" if Mancini realize the 4-4-2 doesn't work. That might harm him in that way, since he would rather be an attacker in a 4-3-1-2. But that spot will be taken by the AM in the diamond 4-4-2.
From what I remember Mancini liked to change tactics. If he realized after 15 minutes it didn't work well he would change. At that time we can't do substitutions. That's why the players must be able to be versatile.
stumpy_mcfc said:
Great thread - started reading it when it first started thinking it was another "Mancini no clue" but quickly saw that it was educational. Was going to comment then but needed to take the young fella to his training.
I have one thought which I have not seen yet - Richards and Boateng may do a lot of switching during a game. Could this be so that they can conserve energy, take turns in bombing up on the attack and this could indeed help with the time Richards sometimes does not get back. Just a thought.
That might be true, will be interesting to see. Obviously Inter didn't do it since Maicon can't play central defender and the CB's can't play left defender (except Chivu). I rather think he changed them against Valencia just to see where they fit best.
Shaelumstash said:
the--dud said:
To be honest I haven't followed Mancini closely enough to say WHY he played 4-4-2 in certain games.
The beauty of the 4-3-1-2 (or 4-3-2-1) is that you have the bodies in the middle of the pitch to outnumber teams and dominate possession. Against other teams that play with a 3 - such as Chelsea and United means you can match them and not get out numbered yourselves.
When playing away at teams that play a more direct long ball style that by-passes midfield (such as Stoke and Blackburn) it is a waste to play with 3 central midfielders. Against these teams away from home I definitely expect us to play a 4-4-2 and AJ and SWP will get games
Absolutely, it will be a waste. But we could still play 4-3-3, with the midfielders Yaya and Milner going more forward than before, with the three strikers being true strikers. I think that's how he played at Inter against weaker teams (not 100% sure here), basically putting on Crespo, Ibra and Adriano all together.
Gorton Gruff said:
Shaelumstash is spot on the narrow formation with 4-3-3 (4 - 1+2 - 1+2) can be used against the strongest teams, then the introduction of Johnson and SWP with 4 - 4 -2 against the teams we should be beating (turning last years draws into victories).
The key players will be DeJong and Silva.
DeJong is the least fexible of all our outfield players but he is one of the best at what he does (last year he was superb against teams like Arsenal and Chelsea, breaking up their attacking midfield play) in other games he will not be necessary and therefore will not play.
Silva is the goalscoring midfielder we have been waiting for. And he is a dream player to bring the best out of Tevez. Carlos is a unique player and not the easiest to fit into a formation. Mancini's skill at building a team has been in signing a clever player who can make the most of Tevez.
That's true. The difference I see between De Jong and Cambiasso is that Cambiasso did great crosses, De Jong doesn't. De Jong will probably often give the ball to Yaya and Milner.
But Cambiasso was always very important to Inter, same with Ibrahimovic who acted in Tevez role. Many people here claimed Ibra was overrated but he was vital to that formation.
Watch this. It has two strikers involved (Ibra, Balotelli) as well as two of the midfielders (Stankovic, Muntari). Beautiful. And against Juventus. This was with Mourinho but at least you'll see how lethal these players could be:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idRu-VB2ILA[/youtube]
Shaelumstash said:
I think it has been lost in the mire, but I asked before if anyone who has any knowledge of Balotelli knew where he played in this system for Inter under Mancini? Did he play high up through the middle where you would expect Ade will play, or did he play deeper like we expect Silva to?
I think he will play either Tevez or Adebayor's role (but according to the image above I guess you could say Tevez and Silva play same role). He's fast but doesn't have that creative vision Silva does. I think we need to have either Silva or Robinho on the pitch together with Balotelli and a striker (Adebayor or Tevez).
MJ said:
Great thread! For some time now it's been clear 4-3-3 is what we're going to be playing more often than not, and the analysis of Mancini's Inter shows the parallels.
One thing I completely disagree with though - Bellamy not only fits in this system, but I can't think of anyone I'd prefer to have on the left of a front 3. Loves to move around, pace to spare, shoots and passes from anywhere etc. With Bellamy leaving now though, given that I still think Silva is being brought in to play behind the striker when needed more than out wide, Robi all of a sudden is going to get the opportunity to play in that spot if he wants it.
This is what Mancini is likely trying to sell to Robi right now, and it's the reason Bellers is leaving!
Bellamy would do well, but it's obvious he hasn't gone well on terms with Mancini. I think he'd be here if he just shut his mouth more often.
Some people will get benched, having Bellamy whining for each time won't be good for the team.
Plus: Who would Bellamy bench? We need Robinho or Silva taking one spot. That leaves Tevez, Adebayor, Balotelli, Jo and Bellamy fighting for those two spots. Jo might not be the big talent today but he's promising. Bellamy, on the other hand, is getting older.
Jo has showed he's 100% comitted to play good in this formation and did well in America. Plus he's capable of playing alone on top, the Adebayor role. Bellamy isn't, in my eyes.
theres only one carlito said:
Best thread I've read for a while and the hypothesis of the OP is exactly the thoughts I have had since Mancini took over. However the one thing I can not fathom is who will he play in goal? Are there any comparisons with Inters' goal keeper under Mancini and our very own Hart/Given?
I don't think so, because Mancini had Cesar and Toldo. Toldo, being old, was the logical backup.
But, from all the discussions here, I think we can agree on one thing: he wants his player to be intelligent, to have good mental abilities. I think that's where Hart is better, he's more complete. Mancini wants complete players ("versatility"). They should be both good at defending and go offense etc.
I visited some Newcastle forums last week and it was funny, they had the EXACT same complaints as we do about Given. They said he's command of area is shit, and he's shit at handling crosses. Hart might not be as good as shot stopper but his mental abilities seems to be phenomenal.
Maybe that's reading a bit too far into it, who knows, maybe Mancini rather wants more experience. But Cesar was pretty young, and he seems to like young players.
I remember the kippax said:
At last a thread worth reading on tactics ;-)
I agree wholeheartedly with the majority of comments regarding RM's tactics - a 433 is the most likely formation, and that he has been buying/moulding players to play the formation. I mentioned on another thread regarding 25 man squad that I don't buy that the team needs to gel, as long as everyone understands their specific role.
In reply to the poster who said he preferred the "British" 442 system - I did my first FA Coaching course in 1996. The man at the top at the time laying down the preferred method of coaching was Howard Wilkinson, and the whole course was on the point of 4-3-3 (which ultimately became 4-5-1 in defence) This was obvioiusly based on the Ajax method of 1-3 - 3 - 3, which they seemed to have played since Cruyff and the inception of "Total Football" and from their Academy up and particularly relevant remembering that previously to that FA coaches had relied on the "bible" written by Charles Hughes (he of the Wimbledon method of play)
This is what RM is trying to achieve - he has good footballers in pace, technique and style - but again, as I have said before - it is all about intelligence and knowledge of the system. The 3 DMs will step back to replace the centre halves, when they are pulled across to counter a fullback going forward, but what they will also do is allow the same to bomb forward, with a central midfielder creating an attacking 6/7.
We are blessed (yes blessed!) with the fulcrum of the team being IMO one of the best DM in the World in NDJ (you don't get to a World Cup final if all you can do is pass sideways) He will sit and allow the other 2 to work around him, he will step into the back 4 and occasionally, as versus Valencia, he will push the whole team forward to within the edges of the opposition's box to create 8/9 men in the opposition half.
I am very excited for this season, and I know that with the players we have we will be very close to something special this season. In RM we trust, and I am right looking forward to it
Excellent insight! Sounds very promising.
