Israel.

[Helmet Cole]

don't see this tip-toeing around other religions on here, the abuse the CC and the Pope has got around his mere visit and we can't even criticise Judaism?

what a piece of double-standards.

In fairness all priests bum kids apparently, so it's ok to slate the CC. Therefore your comparison does not hold water as Jews are great.

 

[buzzer1]

don't see this tip-toeing around other religions on here, the abuse the CC and the Pope has got around his mere visit and we can't even criticise Judaism?

what a piece of double-standards.

In fairness all priests bum kids apparently, so it's ok to slate the CC. Therefore your comparison does not hold water as Jews are great.

Haha,

 

[lloydie]

don't see this tip-toeing around other religions on here, the abuse the CC and the Pope has got around his mere visit and we can't even criticise Judaism?

what a piece of double-standards.

There were at least two threads on the Popes visit. Both were as vigorously argued about as this one. There have been many threads on the actions of the Israelis.

Criticism of that particular religion, including it's collusion with the Nazi's was dismissed by some now attacking Israel with similar arguments that they are unable to accept in this case. For some morality has movable goalposts and it depend's on which team you support.

 

[blueinsa]

I don't see a debate on a religion here fella's, i see a debate on a Nation and it's government and it's illegal behaviour.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

First point is my post wasn't aimed at you so why shout your mouth off at something that had nothing to do with you? I'm pleased to hear you show some consistency.

As to why are they treating the Palestinians so badly, you conveniently forget that even as recently as 1973, Arab armies attacked Israel and Palestinian terorrists committed outrage after outrage against Jews (and others) outside and inside Israel. Gaza is run by a bunch of hard-line Islamic thugs who would kill every Jew if they got the chance and publicly decalre their unwillingness to recognise Israel and desire to destroy it.

Finally, if the Arabs had accepted international law in 1948 and had not attacked the legally established State of Israel then none of this would be a problem today.

Fuk me,the hypocrasy is astounding from your good self PB. Also you mention thugs, well you could add to that if you were talking about hardline Israelis that constantly flout international law and continue the Genocide and obsessive disgraceful treatment of Arabs within Israel.

Look PB, from what i can see, the people that have contributed to this thread have shown zero anti- semitism, if you wanna sex it up to make people look like twats for speaking the truth then knock yourself out, even after people have said that they have no allegiance to either side you still continue to cast asperions and tarnish people with the Anti-semitic nonsense, it's a fkin disgrace and you have no right to do this, as i said last night, it happens right through the Israeli nation both to anti and pro Israeli people, so you are in a win win situation and as they say, ignorance is bliss. There is absolutely no point in discussing anything at all with people that steadfastly massage the facts and actualy believe what they say however many times they are told that they are wrong in their assumptions, it's difficult mate.

-- Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:46 am --

And here we have it - buzzer1's motive laid bare. The good old Jewish conspiracy.

And you really need to check your facts. Not one single Israeli president has been a member of a terrorist organisation. Some of them served in Haganah but that was the equivalent of the Army and not a terror group. Chaim Weizmann did vital research for the Allies that led to the development of synthetic oils.

President Shazar was a newspaper editor. Katzir was a scientist. Herzog & Ezer Weizmann were British soldiers.

What are you on mate, irgun? Chaim Wiezman(sp?), Sharon, do you really want me to go on and embarass you further. And you are sounding and looking pathetic with your constant and bullshit accusations of my so called 'true agenda', from now on i am gonna treat it with the required ignorance it deserves, or i could fkin report you for your constant accusations of me being anti semitic, you know, a taste of your own medicine.

Ariel Sharon was Prime Minister not President. And if you can produce a shred of evidence that Chaim Weizmann was a terrorist then I'd be delighted to hear it. sharon was certainly a member of the youth wing of Haganah (which was not a terrorist organisation) but never a member of the Irgun or Stern Gang, which were.

I attack your argument not you. I actually quite like your posts and reckon it'd be a great laugh to have a pint together. But you constantly attack me personally when I respond. The troulbe is you let the mask slip with that comment and now you're trying to deflect attention away from it.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

don't see this tip-toeing around other religions on here, the abuse the CC and the Pope has got around his mere visit and we can't even criticise Judaism?

what a piece of double-standards.

There were at least two threads on the Popes visit. Both were as vigorously argued about as this one. There have been many threads on the actions of the Israelis.

Criticism of that particular religion, including it's collusion with the Nazi's was dismissed by some now attacking Israel with similar arguments that they are unable to accept in this case. For some morality has movable goalposts and it depend's on which team you support.

it is a poisoned chalice on here. Israel you seem to be implying is used on here as a cover to what people actually mean to be Jews, but say Israel so as to not get themselves into trouble?

I, for one, do not defend what the Catholic Church has done(though it's collusion with the Nazi party is debatable as The Nazis actively destroyed the CC in Germany and The Pope was publically against their actions), however a question does strike me. As many European Jews had to go to Israel instead of integrate back into Europe, it begs a question why do they need their own state which they didn't have in the first place?

 

[buzzer1]

Fuk me,the hypocrasy is astounding from your good self PB. Also you mention thugs, well you could add to that if you were talking about hardline Israelis that constantly flout international law and continue the Genocide and obsessive disgraceful treatment of Arabs within Israel.

Look PB, from what i can see, the people that have contributed to this thread have shown zero anti- semitism, if you wanna sex it up to make people look like twats for speaking the truth then knock yourself out, even after people have said that they have no allegiance to either side you still continue to cast asperions and tarnish people with the Anti-semitic nonsense, it's a fkin disgrace and you have no right to do this, as i said last night, it happens right through the Israeli nation both to anti and pro Israeli people, so you are in a win win situation and as they say, ignorance is bliss. There is absolutely no point in discussing anything at all with people that steadfastly massage the facts and actualy believe what they say however many times they are told that they are wrong in their assumptions, it's difficult mate.

-- Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:46 am --



What are you on mate, irgun? Chaim Wiezman(sp?), Sharon, do you really want me to go on and embarass you further. And you are sounding and looking pathetic with your constant and bullshit accusations of my so called 'true agenda', from now on i am gonna treat it with the required ignorance it deserves, or i could fkin report you for your constant accusations of me being anti semitic, you know, a taste of your own medicine.

Ariel Sharon was Prime Minister not President. And if you can produce a shred of evidence that Chaim Weizmann was a terrorist then I'd be delighted to hear it. sharon was certainly a member of the youth wing of Haganah (which was not a terrorist organisation) but never a member of the Irgun or Stern Gang, which were.

I attack your argument not you. I actually quite like your posts and reckon it'd be a great laugh to have a pint together. But you constantly attack me personally when I respond. The troulbe is you let the mask slip with that comment and now you're trying to deflect attention away from it.

Sorry, i meant PM, and attack you personally? come on mate wtf you on about, it is you with the 'your all anti-semitic rhetoric. Begin headed Irgun and Shamir headed the Stern Gang, and as for the youth wing of Haganah? well thats like saying that the Hitler youth were not actualy supporters of Hitler, so thats ok then eh?
And my mask? thats right PB, you jeep banging the same old drum that i have heard for the last 18 month of being on this forum, if it suits you then mash on, i don't really care, alls i know is that the Israeli Govt. and some of it's peoples are openly flouting International law and are treating another race of people with absolute disgusting and blatant disdain to pot it mildly. I'll have a pint anytime with you and believe me, i have absolutely no alegiance or favour nobody, if a wrong is being done then i will speak up about it, whoever you are. Peace man and come on Blues. :)

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

it is a poisoned chalice on here. Israel you seem to be implying is used on here as a cover to what people actually mean to be Jews, but say Israel so as to not get themselves into trouble?

I, for one, do not defend what the Catholic Church has done(though it's collusion with the Nazi party is debatable as The Nazis actively destroyed the CC in Germany and The Pope was publically against their actions), however a question does strike me. As many European Jews had to go to Israel instead of integrate back into Europe, it begs a question why do they need their own state which they didn't have in the first place?

It is quite possible to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic. Most that do almost certainly aren't. But that fails to recognise that some people use anti-Israeli sentiment as a cloak for anti-semitism as well as the fact that racism generally (and anti-semitism in particular) is deeply ingrained into British culture, particularly the ruling classes. Neville Chamberlain was anti-semitic. Macmillan made his famous remark about Thatcher's cabinet being more Old Estonian than Old Etonian. Someone described him as being anti-semitic without ever really knowing why.

As to your second point about why the Jews couldn't re-integrate into Europe, it depends on where you came from. Many Western Eurpoean Jews did go back to places like France, Holland & Belgium. But those in Eastern Europe still faced persecution and prejudice, with many being killed in Poland even after the war ended. So how could they integrate?

Plus, a large part of Israel's population soon after independence came from the Middle East and North Africa, when they were forcibly expelled from countires they'd lived in happily for centuries.

 

[lloydie]

There were at least two threads on the Popes visit. Both were as vigorously argued about as this one. There have been many threads on the actions of the Israelis.

Criticism of that particular religion, including it's collusion with the Nazi's was dismissed by some now attacking Israel with similar arguments that they are unable to accept in this case. For some morality has movable goalposts and it depend's on which team you support.

it is a poisoned chalice on here. Israel you seem to be implying is used on here as a cover to what people actually mean to be Jews, but say Israel so as to not get themselves into trouble?

I, for one, do not defend what the Catholic Church has done(though it's collusion with the Nazi party is debatable as The Nazis actively destroyed the CC in Germany and The Pope was publically against their actions), however a question does strike me. As many European Jews had to go to Israel instead of integrate back into Europe, it begs a question why do they need their own state which they didn't have in the first place?

My point was simply that on a question of morality or justice, some posters can see a clear point of principle unless the institution under question is one for which they hold an emotional attachment, in which case it becomes clouded by caveats and provisos.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

it is a poisoned chalice on here. Israel you seem to be implying is used on here as a cover to what people actually mean to be Jews, but say Israel so as to not get themselves into trouble?

I, for one, do not defend what the Catholic Church has done(though it's collusion with the Nazi party is debatable as The Nazis actively destroyed the CC in Germany and The Pope was publically against their actions), however a question does strike me. As many European Jews had to go to Israel instead of integrate back into Europe, it begs a question why do they need their own state which they didn't have in the first place?

It is quite possible to criticise Israel without being anti-semitic. Most that do almost certainly aren't. But that fails to recognise that some people use anti-Israeli sentiment as a cloak for anti-semitism as well as the fact that racism generally (and anti-semitism in particular) is deeply ingrained into British culture, particularly the ruling classes. Neville Chamberlain was anti-semitic. Macmillan made his famous remark about Thatcher's cabinet being more Old Estonian than Old Etonian. Someone described him as being anti-semitic without ever really knowing why.

As to your second point about why the Jews couldn't re-integrate into Europe, it depends on where you came from. Many Western Eurpoean Jews did go back to places like France, Holland & Belgium. But those in Eastern Europe still faced persecution and prejudice, with many being killed in Poland even after the war ended. So how could they integrate?

Plus, a large part of Israel's population soon after independence came from the Middle East and North Africa, when they were forcibly expelled from countires they'd lived in happily for centuries.

it just confuses me as to why so many people seemingly dislike the Jews in modern history.

The Nazis, Soviets, Arabs(to some extent), islamists(to some extent), it doesn't add up unless somewhere there's been a massive provocation.

I must have missed something.<br /><br />-- Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:25 pm --<br /><br />

it is a poisoned chalice on here. Israel you seem to be implying is used on here as a cover to what people actually mean to be Jews, but say Israel so as to not get themselves into trouble?

I, for one, do not defend what the Catholic Church has done(though it's collusion with the Nazi party is debatable as The Nazis actively destroyed the CC in Germany and The Pope was publically against their actions), however a question does strike me. As many European Jews had to go to Israel instead of integrate back into Europe, it begs a question why do they need their own state which they didn't have in the first place?

My point was simply that on a question of morality or justice, some posters can see a clear point of principle unless the institution under question is one for which they hold an emotional attachment, in which case it becomes clouded by caveats and provisos.

I gather that, and I would criticise the faith I was baptised as if I believed it to do wrong, which I do on a great number of levels, causing me to have basically walked away.

However I do not see how others are able to slate one religion on here and its actions when another is quite clearly committing offences under the guise of a state.

In the same way that acts by certain priests in the church casts a bad name on the whole of Catholicism, and the "muslim" extremists cast a bad name over Islam, the actions of certain Jews in Israel cast a bad name over Judaism, just because it is politically motivated "religion" doesn't make it any less "religious".