Juan Mata (Merged)

[Dax777]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

If big star superstars cost more than that then I'd rather have our average David Silva than superstar Andy Carroll and Fernando Torres :)

David Silva is big time. We were just lucky to catch Valencia in a time of need. He should have cost 35 million to move a player of his quality.

There are the absolute best: Messi, Ronaldo and Kaka (before his demise) Then there are the great players Iniesta, Xavi, Fab, Rooney, Robben, Ribbery, Van Persie, Silva, Ibra, Eto. Then there are the very good players (who should cost around 20 - 25 mill) I believe Mata is in that 3rd tier

I would definitely place Iniesta and Xavi among the very very best. Silva is in my opinion at least as good as Van Persie, at least.
But yes, Mata is not quite up to that class but not too far off. We shouldn't need players from the very best to move forward and players of Mata's calibre ought to be comfortably good enough to take us where we want to go. Just as long as the manager does his part that is.

The thing with Mata is, that not only will he himself add quality to our squad, but he will also raise Silva's game a notch or two. A quite pleasant prospect wouldn't you agree?

On a side note, I read Del Bosque (spelling?) is pouring praise over our Silva.

I disagree. I think Messi and Ronaldo have shown themselves to be superior in every respect to the likes of Iniesta and Xavi, who while great in their own right, are not in the class of either of the previously mentioned. Messi is on course to be 2nd only to Pele, and Ronaldo is on course to be in the top ten ever. Neither Xavi at the tail end of his career or Iniesta are close to being this good. They both will end up being in the top 10 Barca players of all time greats as they are about as good as the likes of (and I'll argue they both will be ranked behind the likes of) Ronaldihno, Rivaldo, Cryuff, Laudraup (albeit with some hate) and Eto'o. Those are their equals. Cristiano and Messi are both a little above that caliber I believe.

As for Mata, I have no objections to getting him, nor do I think he wouldn't be great for us. I was just pointing out that in my evaluation, very very good players should generally cost between 20 and 25 million. This wasn't a slight on Mata. That is the kind of money 70% of teams in all leagues can't afford to cough up on one player. So certainly the player better be good.

As for bringing Silva's game up a notch, I think one more year in the saddle will do that. ANd I really don't place as much value on Mata's personal effect on that, I think Pastore can equally do the same, and so can a ton of other players (some better than Mata and others who can't lace his boots), When you have a SIlva on your team over time player just get confident in his ability to find then and they work hard to get open. Just watch how hard Micah runs on the right when Silva has the ball. You can tell he knows this dude is about to make him a star with a silky pass, and he'd be damned if he ain't open to savour the glory. Players just know these things.

So for me Mata will bring his own skills and style to the table, and they are considerable ( I hope :P) but Silva will be Silva. Whether it is Santi, Javier, Micah, Juan or Dax (:P) on the receiving end.

 

[spacecadet]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

David Silva is big time. We were just lucky to catch Valencia in a time of need. He should have cost 35 million to move a player of his quality.

There are the absolute best: Messi, Ronaldo and Kaka (before his demise) Then there are the great players Iniesta, Xavi, Fab, Rooney, Robben, Ribbery, Van Persie, Silva, Ibra, Eto. Then there are the very good players (who should cost around 20 - 25 mill) I believe Mata is in that 3rd tier

I would definitely place Iniesta and Xavi among the very very best. Silva is in my opinion at least as good as Van Persie, at least.
But yes, Mata is not quite up to that class but not too far off. We shouldn't need players from the very best to move forward and players of Mata's calibre ought to be comfortably good enough to take us where we want to go. Just as long as the manager does his part that is.

The thing with Mata is, that not only will he himself add quality to our squad, but he will also raise Silva's game a notch or two. A quite pleasant prospect wouldn't you agree?

On a side note, I read Del Bosque (spelling?) is pouring praise over our Silva.

I disagree. I think Messi and Ronaldo have shown themselves to be superior in every respect to the likes of Iniesta and Xavi, who while great in their own right, are not in the class of either of the previously mentioned. Messi is on course to be 2nd only to Pele, and Ronaldo is on course to be in the top ten ever. Neither Xavi at the tail end of his career or Iniesta are close to being this good. They both will end up being in the top 10 Barca players of all time greats as they are they are no better than (and I'll argue they both will be ranked behind the likes of) Ronaldihno, Rivaldo, Cryuff, Laudraup (albeit with some hate) and Eto'o. Those are their equals. Cristiano and Messi are both a little above that caliber I believe.

As for Mata, I have no objections to getting him, nor do I think he wouldn't be great for us. I was just pointing out that in my evaluation, very very good players should generally cost between 20 and 25 million. This wasn't a slight on Mata. That is the kind of money 70% of teams in all leagues can't afford to cough up on one player. So certainly the player better be good.

As for bringing Silva's game up a notch, I think one more year in the saddle will do that. ANd I really don't place as much value on Mata's personal effect on that, I think Pastore can equally do the same, and so can a ton of other players (some better than Mata and others who can't lace his boots), When you have a SIlva on your team over time player just get confident in his ability to find then and they work hard to get open. Just watch how hard Micah runs on the right when Mata has the ball. You can tell he knows this dude is about to make him a star with a silky pass, and he'd be damned if he ain't open to savour the glory. Players just know these things.

So for me Mata will bring his own skills and style to the table, and they are considerable ( I hope :P) but Silva will be Silva. Whether it is Santi, Javier, Micah, Juan or Dax (:P) on the receiving end.

Messi 2nd to Pele??what football have you been watching the last three years??? Messi is the finest footballer ever by a country mile.

 

[Dax777]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

Mata alone may not be in the top tiers, but he adds synergy because of his playstyle and understanding with Silva.

If we could adopt some semblance of the intelligent, quick passing and cunning movement that Spain employs, we would win the league by a large margin. It's obvious that managers like Ferguson are too traditional to be able to adopt the Spanish style, but hopefully not Bobby.

Even though Sanchez is more physically gifted, Mata is more technically proficient and intelligent. We can't ever be Barca, but let's try to emulate them as best we can.

I agree with the thrust of this argument, I just think there are more technically proficient and more intelligent players than Mata.

In order words, I agree with the prototype, I just think we should get the most gizzed up version of that prototype :)<br /><br />-- Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:09 pm --<br /><br />

Messi 2nd to Pele?? what football have you been watching the last three years??? Messi is the finest footballer ever by a country mile.

1. How old are you?
2. How long have you been watching football
3. Give me a few more reasons for your position, so I can determine if this is a valid argument or if you are just trying to Clarkie me. Are you saying Messi is better than Pele?

 

[spacecadet]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

Mata alone may not be in the top tiers, but he adds synergy because of his playstyle and understanding with Silva.

If we could adopt some semblance of the intelligent, quick passing and cunning movement that Spain employs, we would win the league by a large margin. It's obvious that managers like Ferguson are too traditional to be able to adopt the Spanish style, but hopefully not Bobby.

Even though Sanchez is more physically gifted, Mata is more technically proficient and intelligent. We can't ever be Barca, but let's try to emulate them as best we can.

I agree with the thrust of this argument, I just think there are more technically proficient and more intelligent players than Mata.

In order words, I agree with the prototype, I just think we should get the most gizzed up version of that prototype :)

-- Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:09 pm --

Messi 2nd to Pele?? what football have you been watching the last three years??? Messi is the finest footballer ever by a country mile.

1. How old are you?
2. How long have you been watching football
3. Give me a few more reasons for your position, so I can determine if this is a valid argument or if you are just trying to Clarkie me. Are you saying Messi is better than Pele?

1. 45
2. 1972
3. I would argue Maradona was better than Pele- He won the WC with an average Argentina side in 86 and Two Serie A with an average Napoli side.
I have always admired Brazilian football but this man was at his peak 50 years ago.
It is like saying Lofthouse was the greatest 30 goals in 33 games for England that is not true is it.
Clarkie/ Clarkieism not interested
Bowlers bowl faster- Javelin throwers throw further- 100m record gets broken regualarly nowadays doesnt it? Messi is the greatest footballer I have ever seen and I have seen Bell, Bowles, Worthington, Cruyff, Best, Tranny and whoevever you can think of- Nobody is near Messi in my opinion.

 

[Castiel]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

Messi 2nd to Pele??what football have you been watching the last three years??? Messi is the finest footballer ever by a country mile.

Umm, you're very much entitled to believe that, but by the time Pele was Messi's age he had won 2 world cups. Messi hasn't achieved the feat yet. He has scored 1281 professional goals in 1363 games, the all time world record. Messi has a very long way to go to catch him.

Its all subjective, but comparing Messi to Pele when he's 23 isn't a great idea if you ask me. Compare them when he's retired.

 

[Shooter 83]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

Messi 2nd to Pele??what football have you been watching the last three years??? Messi is the finest footballer ever by a country mile.

Umm, you're very much entitled to believe that, but by the time Pele was Messi's age he had won 2 world cups. Messi hasn't achieved the feat yet. He has scored 1281 professional goals in 1363 games, the all time world record. Messi has a very long way to go to catch him.

Its all subjective, but comparing Messi to Pele when he's 23 isn't a great idea if you ask me. Compare them when he's retired.

Messi would score triple that if he spent his career in Brazil and USA.

 

[Castiel]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

Messi 2nd to Pele??what football have you been watching the last three years??? Messi is the finest footballer ever by a country mile.

Umm, you're very much entitled to believe that, but by the time Pele was Messi's age he had won 2 world cups. Messi hasn't achieved the feat yet. He has scored 1281 professional goals in 1363 games, the all time world record. Messi has a very long way to go to catch him.

Its all subjective, but comparing Messi to Pele when he's 23 isn't a great idea if you ask me. Compare them when he's retired.

Messi would score triple that if he spent his career in Brazil and USA.

And I suppose the world cup is a micky mouse cup?

 

[Dax777]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

[

1. 45
2. 1972

This confirms you are not a kid tryna clarkie me. Good! So lets get into the facts.

1. I would argue Maradona was better than Pele- He won the WC with an average Argentina side in 86 and Two Serie A with an average Napoli side.
I have always admired Brazilian football but this man was at his peak 50 years ago.
It is like saying Lofthouse was the greatest 30 goals in 33 games for England that is not true is it.

2. Bowlers bowl faster- Javelin throwers throw further- 100m record gets broken regualarly nowadays doesnt it? Messi is the greatest footballer I have ever seen and I have seen Bell, Bowles, Worthington, Cruyff, Best, Tranny and whoevever you can think of- Nobody is near Messi in my opinion.

Okay you did not mention Pele in your list. Did you see him play? But back to the argument. Unlike running, throwing Javelin or lifting the heaviest weights. Football is not judged that way. But even if it were, Pele would still be the greatest statistically. And that aside his accomplishments are unmatched. He led the league 9 years in a row. Scored more goals in one season than anyone has done before and ever since. Was a competive player at the top of the game for 20 straight years from 1956 - 1975.

Statistically Pele did things you can't imagine. He led the Brazilian league in scoring at age 16. Went to the World Cup and in four games scored enough goals to win the Silver boot, and be judged the 2nd best player in the tournament. Was injured in 1966 and Brazil failed to get out of their group. Which is an argument against the notion that his supporting cast was so great they could have done it without him. An argument that could equally be levied at Messi by the way, considering his inability to lead his country to the WC so far.

He went on to score 56 goals in one season in his 2nd year as a professional (17 year old) nullifying your suggestion he was at his peak at 50. BTW that record is yet to fall in Brazil. The country that gave us Rivelino, Rivaldo, Romario, Bebeto, Kaka, Neymar, Pato. Robihno, Serginho, Careca, Socrates, Jairzihno, Tustao, Dida, Vava, Garincha, Rivelino, Ronaldihno, Ademir and a 100 others less popular. Yet none of them have come close to repeating this feat at any age.

This is not like Lofthouse who scored 30 in 33 games. As it could be asked what else did he do? Did lofthouse lead the league in scoring 9 years in a row? Did he win best player at the WC? Did He score 58 goals at age 17? was he on 3 WC winning squads. Did he score 1087 goals in 1120 games over a career. You could get lucky over a 30 game span. But If your whole playing career put together at every level suggest you averaged a goal a game of a 20 year span. That my friend is the epitome of greatness.

These are not the stats of mere men. The combination of raw talent, professionalism, determination and longetivity. Makes Pele incomparable to anyone who has ever played the game. And yes, that includes Messi. Who I personally think is as good as they come.

Maradona on the other hand is not even in the discussion. He was a fantastic player who won 1 WC and failed at 3 others. Cobbled together a couple of Serie A titles under the auspices of single-handedly carrying the team, A team that had De Napoli, Careca, Alemao, Ferrera, and Carnavale is hardly a bunch of scrubs. Sure Maradona was by far the best player on the team, but he didn't win the league with scrubs. He had a good supporting cast. He failed to take a more talented Argetina team to victory in 1990 and 1994. So the whole claim of single handedly carrying a weak team to victory is a little tainted, considering he couldn't repeat the feat with better players. Not to mention, his luck of having to face, Uruguay, England, and Belgium on its way to the final. A route that avoided practically every hot team in the WC- Denmark, France, Soviet Union, Brazil and Spain. They faced no team that won their group, and no team that had a bonafied star coming to the WC. And worst of all they avoided Brazil and France. I mean you can only play who is in front of you, but all the teams Argentina played had a grand total of 4 wins amongst all of them in 90 minutes of football. We are talking about perhaps the most impotent set of offensive opposition in the history of the WC.

Lets not even start on the redefinition of Maradona. He should be labelled the wasted talent, as opposed to being shrine the 2nd best player ever. Which Thankfully Messi should change soon enough.

 

[Scooby Blue]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

Umm, you're very much entitled to believe that, but by the time Pele was Messi's age he had won 2 world cups. Messi hasn't achieved the feat yet. He has scored 1281 professional goals in 1363 games, the all time world record. Messi has a very long way to go to catch him.

Its all subjective, but comparing Messi to Pele when he's 23 isn't a great idea if you ask me. Compare them when he's retired.

Messi would score triple that if he spent his career in Brazil and USA.

And I suppose the world cup is a micky mouse cup?

Not quite sure what world cups have to do with it.
was George Best a lesser player because N.Ireland never got to WC for him?

I love these discussions, but 3 things to remember:

i) pitches (especially in England)
- a lot better now, which favours skilful players.
Would have been fun to watch Messi try and dribble on Derby's old Baseball ground mudheap.

ii) rule changes
- skilful players much more protected now than years ago

iii) perhaps most important: Tv coverage of every game.
- Messi only has to do a couple of stepovers in his back-garden and it is on youtube within 5 minutes.
90% of the greatest goals + bits of skill in the years 1945-1975ish were not caught on camera (apart from World Cups etc).
Imagine seeing Jimmy Greaves' highlights on youtube: he would make Rooney + ronaldo look like pub players.

 

[Chevelle]

Re: Juan Mata is a must

How did this go from "we must sign Mata" to who is the greatest footballer in history? hahaha