Juanma Lillo leaves to become Al-Sadd Head Coach

Shaelumstash said:
You’re entirely missing the point.

We started the season invariably playing 4231, with Gundogan and Rodri both holding and DeBruyne as a (largely ineffective) lone number 10.

We definitely changed back to 433 - Rodri holding with Gundogan pushed higher up alongside Bernado or DeBruyne.

Guardiola even mentioned at the time that going back to our more familiar shape, everyone knew their positions and passing lines with their eyes closed.

I agree our defensive line has been deeper this season than in the past. But I’m not talking about that.

I’m talking about the difference between 4231 and 433, and if you don’t think there are major differences, I don’t have time to explain them.
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I am not missing any point. I cannot agree with the sequence or timing of changes you refer to. When Kevin was injured people feared how much we would miss him. But his absence led to changes in the team, leading to our surge in winning , to the extent that some wondered if he could get back in the team, " are we better without Kevin" was debated. . He did get back in the team but not in his regular midfield role, but as a false 9 or deep lying 9 or in a rotating front 3 with Foden and Mahrez as played in both CL semi-finals. Read Kevin's interview this week about his surprise at where Pep is playing him. You don't need to explain anything, just re-watch our games since we drew with West Brom. that would be a better use of time ,and it is, imo very clear as to how we evolved from struggling in Nov. to Champions in May and (fitness/form/lack of pre-season aside) why. Our system is fluid and for now successful.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Who mentioned old style centre forwards?

It’s perfectly normal to play 433 with a false 9, Guardiola did it rather famously with Messi at Barca.

Those other numbers you wrote down just look like meaningless telephone numbers.

Guardiola’s teams are always fluid in possession, if you’re struggling with what I’m talking about - the major difference pre-November and post-November is that we invariably played with 2 holding midfielders pre-November and invariably with 1 holding midfielder post-November.

Please don’t come back with the anomalies, I know them, that’s why I said “invariably”.
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Yet Cancelo and Zinchenko "invariably" moved in to support Rodri when we were in possession acting "invariably" as supporting midfielders to defend and attack opponents in the opponents' half, in which case they at times operated as both holding and attacking midfielders on different occasions within the same game. In terms of centre forwards, we have Aguero, when fit, not Messi, so not relevant to how Pep gets the best from the City squad. Not much point in discussing opinions really when one party uses numbers to argue a point but criticises someone else's use of numbers. I do realise Pep coached "at Barca" as you kindly remind me but I am really more interested in what he does at City.
 
LongsightM13 said:
No coincidence that we inexplicably went back to the early season slow double pivot in the semi final against Chelsea and produced our worst performance for months
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Nothing to do with the fact we played a heavily rotated and unfamiliar team up against one of the best sides in Europe at the time...
 
LongsightM13 said:
No coincidence that we inexplicably went back to the early season slow double pivot in the semi final against Chelsea and produced our worst performance for months
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Nothing inexplicable in the team for that game. 3 of our CL semi-final winning team started that game. We lost 1 - 0. Rotation and fine margins.
 
samarasra said:
I am not missing any point. I cannot agree with the sequence or timing of changes you refer to. When Kevin was injured people feared how much we would miss him. But his absence led to changes in the team, leading to our surge in winning , to the extent that some wondered if he could get back in the team, " are we better without Kevin" was debated. . He did get back in the team but not in his regular midfield role, but as a false 9 or deep lying 9 or in a rotating front 3 with Foden and Mahrez as played in both CL semi-finals. Read Kevin's interview this week about his surprise at where Pep is playing him. You don't need to explain anything, just re-watch our games since we drew with West Brom. that would be a better use of time ,and it is, imo very clear as to how we evolved from struggling in Nov. to Champions in May and (fitness/form/lack of pre-season aside) why. Our system is fluid and for now successful.
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Perhaps you replied to me by mistake? Everything you’ve just said backs up my point.
 
samarasra said:
Yet Cancelo and Zinchenko "invariably" moved in to support Rodri when we were in possession acting "invariably" as supporting midfielders to defend and attack opponents in the opponents' half, in which case they at times operated as both holding and attacking midfielders on different occasions within the same game. In terms of centre forwards, we have Aguero, when fit, not Messi, so not relevant to how Pep gets the best from the City squad. Not much point in discussing opinions really when one party uses numbers to argue a point but criticises someone else's use of numbers. I do realise Pep coached "at Barca" as you kindly remind me but I am really more interested in what he does at City.
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Lahm was a full back who tucked in to central midfield for Pep’s Bayern. So was Kimmich. So was Alaba.

Pep played Clichy and Sagna in these roles in his first ever competitive game against Sunderland.

Delph played in this role for pretty much the entirety of 2017/18. Zinchenko has played in this role for the last few seasons.

It’s nothing new. It’s not something Pep invented in November. All of the above happened with a core shape of 433

When people start talking telephone numbers I just tend to switch off because it tends to be complete nonsense.

You can have a false 9 and it still be 433. You can tuck your full backs inside and it still be 433.

The major difference between how we played pre-November (4231) and post-November (433) is changing from two holding midfielders to one.

That change makes a huge difference to the way a team plays.

4231 can give you quite a cautious, flat midfield and limited passing options going forward with an over reliance on a number 10.

433 allows you to have two midfielders higher up the pitch, pressing higher up and giving you two forward passing options making it easier to play at a higher tempo both in and out of possession.

That change was absolutely fundamental to our upturn in form and results. Go back and watch. Pep’s said it himself.
 
samarasra said:
"Pep is on record as saying he “didn’t like” the team, and in November went back to our old style of play." But we didn't go back to our old style did we. He adjusted the team ie. Cancelo supporting Rodri in possession with Gundogan pushing farther forward than he ever has, or Zinchenko coming in to do something similar on the left, using a false 9 etc. There were no more regular 4/5/6 thrashings of weaker teams and conceding stupid goals where we should be winning, wasn't that our "old style" ? Why we arguably regressed in 19/20. We evolved into a system that best suited the circumstances and squad, as Pep said repeatedly, less running , moving the ball quicker not making the players run too much , more solid in defence. Yes Pep said he "didn't like" the team, but if you read the articles on Lillo and look at the 21 winning run games, he didn't go back to any old style, he tweaked until we settled into a newer system, it just didn't happen overnight.
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Only the false 9 has been different.

Both Fabian Delph and Oleks Zinchenko have played the in-field full back role in title winning seasons for us before.

And in our previous title winning seasons with Pep we had the best defensive records in the Prem. And we’ve also conceded stupid goals in the last five months - think about United at home, Chelsea in the FA Cup, among others, goals that look exactly like goals we’ve conceded before.
 
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