Keir Starmer

[PannickAtTheDisco]

I think "someone having class" is purely a perception and subjective to each individual, as opposed to Rascal's tendency towards fixed working class, upper class definitions.

e.g. Dominic Cummings may be upper class, but he has no class. Same for Boris, or Trump. I think it boils down to conducting yourself in such a way as to be perceived as respectable, admirable or high value by someone else.

In contrast, somebody like Andy Murray who was just very talented and driven but always conducts himself in a respectable and dignified manner and has humble beginnings, I think is a good example given it's Wimbledon fortnight of someone who has class.

 

[bluejon]

What do you define as having class?

What examples are there of her having zero class?

Her shite taste in trainers.

 

[mat]

Not enough MPs on board for a leadership challenge.

 

[The blue phantom]

Instead of defining what class isn’t to you, it might be beneficial for the debate for you to define what class is to you.

Raynor, Nandy, Ashworth have regularly had the piss took out of them on here because of their lisp, Raynor has copped it even more to go alongside her Council Estate upbringing, The Right despise her ( Some on the left too ) an obsessive hatred. I dare say one of the bellends on here will make a childish reply about her.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

They did and he wasnt involved.

Re Corbyn and the I.R.A. - somebody had to do something.
How many more people would have been murdered otherwise?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I think "someone having class" is purely a perception and subjective to each individual, as opposed to Rascal's tendency towards fixed working class, upper class definitions.

e.g. Dominic Cummings may be upper class, but he has no class. Same for Boris, or Trump. I think it boils down to conducting yourself in such a way as to be perceived as respectable, admirable or high value by someone else.

In contrast, somebody like Andy Murray who was just very talented and driven but always conducts himself in a respectable and dignified manner and has humble beginnings, I think is a good example given it's Wimbledon fortnight of someone who has class.

A fair explanation of how you perceive class. Hopefully the other poster will define how he sees it so the conversation can move on.

 

[Rascal]

I think "someone having class" is purely a perception and subjective to each individual, as opposed to Rascal's tendency towards fixed working class, upper class definitions.

e.g. Dominic Cummings may be upper class, but he has no class. Same for Boris, or Trump. I think it boils down to conducting yourself in such a way as to be perceived as respectable, admirable or high value by someone else.

In contrast, somebody like Andy Murray who was just very talented and driven but always conducts himself in a respectable and dignified manner and has humble beginnings, I think is a good example given it's Wimbledon fortnight of someone who has class.

So ctwrd's idea of class is that someone who shags behind there wifes back is classy, someone who comes across as a bit of loudmouth is not classy.

Which fits my definition, the philanderer is not working class so it is ok, doff cap tug forelock yes sir no sir, yes m'lud, can i polish your boots with my tongue m'lud

The girl who speaks normal in regards to the working class background she comes from is not classy because she speaks normal.

Politics then invariably comes down to how people speak. Speak Manc, alright r kid, sorted, nice one, no mither...not classy and should not be an MP because they talk Manc.

Talk estuary English. Oh I say that is a dream of a volley, more champers Molly, Wimbers is fun this summer, I know the Duke of Kent haw haw haw.,,,,,,,Classy, ideal for an MP

 

[west didsblue]

So ctwrd's idea of class is that someone who shags behind there wifes back is classy, someone who comes across as a bit of loudmouth is not classy.

Which fits my definition, the philanderer is not working class so it is ok, doff cap tug forelock yes sir no sir, yes m'lud, can i polish your boots with my tongue m'lud

The girl who speaks normal in regards to the working class background she comes from is not classy because she speaks normal.

Politics then invariably comes down to how people speak. Speak Manc, alright r kid, sorted, nice one, no mither...not classy and should not be an MP because they talk Manc.

Talk estuary English. Oh I say that is a dream of a volley, more champers Molly, Wimbers is fun this summer, I know the Duke of Kent haw haw haw.,,,,,,,Classy, ideal for an MP

Problem is that too many people are fucking snobs and can't get it into their heads that someone from a poor background who hasn't lost their accent can possibly do a more important job than them. Angela Rayner always comes across well, answers questions with less than the usual amount of politician's bullshit and seems perfectly at ease with responding to anything put to her without blustering, waffling and changing the subject to vaccines.

 

[Phil1]

Until he comes up with a catchy slogan he’s got no chance.
Catchy slogans win elections because the average Joe can’t be arsed to delve any deeper..

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Whatever her talents, whatever her ability, Angela Rayner has less chance of becoming PM than I do of being Pope.
The shires will not vote for her.
The red tops will have a field day.
Modern politics is nothing to do with values or principles. It’s just sound bites and vacuous slogans that get you elected.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

So ctwrd's idea of class is that someone who shags behind there wifes back is classy, someone who comes across as a bit of loudmouth is not classy.

Which fits my definition, the philanderer is not working class so it is ok, doff cap tug forelock yes sir no sir, yes m'lud, can i polish your boots with my tongue m'lud

The girl who speaks normal in regards to the working class background she comes from is not classy because she speaks normal.

Politics then invariably comes down to how people speak. Speak Manc, alright r kid, sorted, nice one, no mither...not classy and should not be an MP because they talk Manc.

Talk estuary English. Oh I say that is a dream of a volley, more champers Molly, Wimbers is fun this summer, I know the Duke of Kent haw haw haw.,,,,,,,Classy, ideal for an MP

Clearly accents have both positive and negative connotations, but societal preference and judgement is lauded by the same folk when it suits matters they agree with. You win some, you lose some. A scouser could be the most genuine, sincere person ever but if they have a scouse accent they deep down will remind you of the likes of Carragher.

Matt Hancock has seen far more condemnation than the stage managed image protection of a Jada Pinkett Smith, who couldn't possibly be held accountable, condemned and lose everything because society won't allow her to be held responsible and thus she is stage managed back into her prime spot. Hancock exercises the same discretion and will lose a hell of a lot. So again, it's alright and lauded when it suits the social conditioning and end goal, but when it counters suddenly it's vitriol. Just needs the humility to accept that you'll will some and lose some.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I think "someone having class" is purely a perception and subjective to each individual, as opposed to Rascal's tendency towards fixed working class, upper class definitions.

e.g. Dominic Cummings may be upper class, but he has no class. Same for Boris, or Trump. I think it boils down to conducting yourself in such a way as to be perceived as respectable, admirable or high value by someone else.

In contrast, somebody like Andy Murray who was just very talented and driven but always conducts himself in a respectable and dignified manner and has humble beginnings, I think is a good example given it's Wimbledon fortnight of someone who has class.

You're confusing class with classy.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

You're confusing class with classy.

having class and being classy are interchangeable.

Being of a certain, arbitrarily defined social class is different. If ctwrd was referring to that he wasn't using it correctly. You're of a certain class, of which zero class isn't a category. If you have zero class, you aren't classy, meaning you don't conduct yourself with class.

 

[Grassland Blue]

We used to employ thousands in digging coal, weaving, mill workers, slavery, and so on. The world changes. Redeploy these people into building wind and water turbines, capturing the sun's energy. If we used your argument, we would still be pulling carts with horses. The bottom line in an economic sense is if we don't get in and start developing new technologies, someone else will. There will obviously be a transitional period, but that can be accommodated if we invest in that transition. It's also funny that Tories didnt give a fuck about our Coal, Steel, Ship Building, Car Production, in fact our whole manufacturing base. They let them die without so much as a single fuck being given. However, make it about WMD production and all changes as they seem hellbent on having a cock waving independent arsenal. We don't need them. What we do need is a future and that future will be easier achieved in a better way if we use it's resources to build our country, rather than destroying someone else's.

Wind turbines are manufactured in India...

 

[ctwrd]

Instead of defining what class isn’t to you, it might be beneficial for the debate for you to define what class is to you.

It’s not an exhaustive list but some to include particular in public speaking and attendance at public events/tv:
Politeness
Respect for others
Calmness in expressing your point of view
Listening to others and not just dismissing their views.

 

[ctwrd]

having class and being classy are interchangeable.

Being of a certain, arbitrarily defined social class is different. If ctwrd was referring to that he wasn't using it correctly. You're of a certain class, of which zero class isn't a category. If you have zero class, you aren't classy, meaning you don't conduct yourself with class.

You are correct. No class = not classy.

being of a class can depend on where from but you can move from one to another.

tbh isn’t the trend in the last generation or so to a larger “middle class”. Living standards generally have improved and there now seems to be, to me, a smaller “working” class and even smaller upper class with a massive lot of people in between. It does appear that the poorer are getting poorer (will only get worse with knock on of covid) and rich will always get Richer.

fwiw, I don’t see either as leader material but nandy knocks spots off rayner

 

[ROCKET80]

It’s not an exhaustive list but some to include particular in public speaking and attendance at public events/tv:
Politeness
Respect for others
Calmness in expressing your point of view
Listening to others and not just dismissing their views.

To be considered classy do have to adhere to these all the time or can you veer away from them on occasion?

Any specific examples of Rayner constantly deviating from the items on this list?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Whatever her talents, whatever her ability, Angela Rayner has less chance of becoming PM than I do of being Pope.
The shires will not vote for her.
The red tops will have a field day.
Modern politics is nothing to do with values or principles. It’s just sound bites and vacuous slogans that get you elected.

Nailed it. Having watched some more interviews of her, she does come across pretty much as described by @west didsblue, but people make assumptions about her based on her voice and mistake her assertive and passionate defence of her beliefs and party policy for rudeness.

Hopefully some time in the future this stuff won't be a barrier but because it currently is, she shouldn't be labour leader.

 

[blue for life]

I am coming more round to thinking that Burnham in the long term maybe the way forward if he can win the Midlands and Southern vote. I think he can turn around the current so called Red Wall crisis but it’s a long job.

 

[west didsblue]

I am coming more round to thinking that Burnham in the long term maybe the way forward if he can win the Midlands and Southern vote. I think he can turn around the current so called Red Wall crisis but it’s a long job.

Burnham would be my choice too. There is other talent in the Labour Party but most would be torn apart by the media or already has been (usually for no good reason). I think Burnham could hold his own and he has charisma which is what is lacking in Starmer and many of the other possible candidates.