Keir Starmer

[Metal Biker]

Starmer can fuck off if he thinks he can rely on the true left labour voters, he can't and he won't win an election. Corbyn was the answer but people would rather believe daily mail headlines than take notice of his social policies. We've got the govt we deserve because of people like you, the alternative now is Tory lite, no thanks.

So then the Tories win again, and again and again, because you're too stubborn to accept that people don't want what you're selling and the only alternatives then are to not vote, vote for someone else or vote Tory, and in each of those scenarios, the Conservatives will be able to form a Government, because Tories will always vote Tories and it's clear that there are enough of them for them to vote in enough numbers that allows them to form a national Government.

When will you lot learn this simple premise!? People don't want a 'left' Labour, they prefer a centrist Labour. You get a centrist Labour Government in power, you can at least attempt to bring about the changes that benefits people you all 'claim' to want for people. You need to accept that, right now, the national mood overall of the UK is 'Tory-lite' as you call it, or full on, unchecked Conservatives.

 

[Fame Monster]

So then the Tories win again, and again and again, because you're too stubborn to accept that people don't want what you're selling and the only alternatives then are to not vote, vote for someone else or vote Tory, and in each of those scenarios, the Conservatives will be able to form a Government, because Tories will always vote Tories and it's clear that there are enough of them for them to vote in enough numbers that allows them to form a national Government.

When will you lot learn this simple premise!? People don't want a 'left' Labour, they prefer a centrist Labour. You get a centrist Labour Government in power, you can at least attempt to bring about the changes that benefits people you all 'claim' to want for people. You need to accept that, right now, the national mood overall of the UK is 'Tory-lite' as you call it, or full on, unchecked Conservatives.

Yep.

No-one but a few cranks want full-on socialism in this country so anyone who stands on a platform that even threatens it will get decimated in an election like what happened in 2019.

People like their branded stuff and their McDonalds, and their Volkswagens, and their Nike and so on. They also like free enterprise.

There will never be any appetite for another British Leyland or a British Burger Company or the massive bureaucracy that socialism would require and it makes me laugh because a lot of the people who seem to be advocating this kind of stuff, in the Labour Party at least, hate the idea of Britain and Britishness so when they work out that socialism will inevitably require people to 'buy British', they'll abandon ship faster than the owner of the Titanic.

It's student union politics and there's nothing sadder than seeing washed-up commies like Corbyn and McDonnell playing pied piper to a bunch of gender/racial/Marxist theory students, none of whom have the wisdom to critically analyse the nonsense put in front of them, while the world keeps changing and moving further and further away from their antiquated politics.

 

[blue cigar]

So then the Tories win again, and again and again, because you're too stubborn to accept that people don't want what you're selling and the only alternatives then are to not vote, vote for someone else or vote Tory, and in each of those scenarios, the Conservatives will be able to form a Government, because Tories will always vote Tories and it's clear that there are enough of them for them to vote in enough numbers that allows them to form a national Government.

When will you lot learn this simple premise!? People don't want a 'left' Labour, they prefer a centrist Labour. You get a centrist Labour Government in power, you can at least attempt to bring about the changes that benefits people you all 'claim' to want for people. You need to accept that, right now, the national mood overall of the UK is 'Tory-lite' as you call it, or full on, unchecked Conservatives.

Fuck centre labour. Where was centre labour at the last election? I don't want a Tory lite govt therefore I and many others will not vote for it, is that simple enough? Stubborn doesn't enter into it, it's about principles and wanting the right change for the country.

 

[blue cigar]

So you'd rather have full Tory than Tory-lite as you put it?

I'd rather have neither, I can't vote for either of them. A hung parliament with SNP in coalition will be the best outcome at the next election, at least they have socialist policies.

 

[Bovril]

Fuck centre labour. Where was centre labour at the last election? I don't want a Tory lite govt therefore I and many others will not vote for it, is that simple enough? Stubborn doesn't enter into it, it's about principles and wanting the right change for the country.

See the very good post above by Fame Monster, it's not labour folk are against it's the left nonsense. I would vote for Starmer as he comes across as a very good leader and communicator exactly the opposite that Johnson is, only problem, he needs to purge the party.

 

[Metal Biker]

Fuck centre labour. Where was centre labour at the last election? I don't want a Tory lite govt therefore I and many others will not vote for it, is that simple enough? Stubborn doesn't enter into it, it's about principles and wanting the right change for the country.

Accept the things you cannot change, and the fact is the overal general voting public doesn't want the 'change' you're advocating at present. So what is better? Having a party you have influence in, guiding them to making the decisions you want to see, or seeing your rivals gain power over and over again?

Otherwise become familiar with losing every election, because your method it hasn't worked for over 10 years whereas a centre Labour could bring about some of the changes you want to see. A Tory leadership will bring about none.

 

[Rascal]

He's said a lot on patriotism but when the issues crop up in recent attacks on British culture, he's said very little.

I am not a fan of Keith, he is no Labour leader but he was right to say fuck all about this supposed attacks on British culture, because they are a false flag invented by the right to try and paint the traditional party of working class patriotism as cultural marxists, which just happens to be a take on cultural Bolshekivism which was an anti semitic trope invented by the fucking Nazi's

 

[Rascal]

I think the danger for Starmer is he could end up being disliked and distrusted by everyone.

I think you can either pander to the Momentum extremists in the party and throw the working class under the bus like Corbyn or appeal to the working class and throw the extremists under the bus.

You can't appeal to both when a lot of the time, these two groups have interests that are diametrically opposed.

I don't know how many times I have to say this....but Momentum has 5k members, its has little influence on the Labour party. Why would anybody pander to organisation that was designed to be grass roots campaigner's.

And how the fuck did Corbyn throw the working class under the bus apart from allowing Keith to make Brexit policy.

Momentum are not fucking hard left wing, they are the people who deliver leaflets and stuff. I am hard left wing if you like that language and I dumped Momentum very quickly because they were too right wing for me.

All I can assume from your misguided post is that you think the Tories appeal to the working class. Which is utter fucking nonsense as they are the party of the capitalist class and they despise the working class as shown by their actions since Thatcher.

 

[Rascal]

The problem for Labour is that they appointed a leader who, amongst other things, sided with Galtieri, the IRA, Hamas, the Kremlin, and countless Islamic extremists so they now have an image problem to correct.

That means the Labour Party are now unable to vote against bills they probably should be opposing to distance themselves from the anti-British sect that used to run, and are still in the party.

What planet do you live on?

You are typical of a person who has bought the whole RW media scare stories and believed them to be true.

Anti British sect?

I assume them you think i am somehow anti British because i am left wing, The very left wing that gave people like you a decent education, a decent chance of good health, a decent chance of avoiding poverty, a decent chance of actually living in a house. If that makes me anti British then i am fucking proud of being anti British because the opposite is a Britain i would fucking despise.

 

[Rascal]

They're lies. If you think otherwise then back it up with facts, otherwise you're blowing it out of your arse.

Of course they are lies, it was a Macarthyite witchunt delivered from capitalist funded Tufton street shadowy think tanks, based on innuendo and assumption. It worked though sadly because some fucking clowns actually believe the nonsense. The capitalist class were scared stiff of Corbyn as they thought he might make them pay some tax and actually make this country more equal rather than it being one of the most unequal countries in the developed world.

 

[Rascal]

Yep.

No-one but a few cranks want full-on socialism in this country so anyone who stands on a platform that even threatens it will get decimated in an election like what happened in 2019.

People like their branded stuff and their McDonalds, and their Volkswagens, and their Nike and so on. They also like free enterprise.

There will never be any appetite for another British Leyland or a British Burger Company or the massive bureaucracy that socialism would require and it makes me laugh because a lot of the people who seem to be advocating this kind of stuff, in the Labour Party at least, hate the idea of Britain and Britishness so when they work out that socialism will inevitably require people to 'buy British', they'll abandon ship faster than the owner of the Titanic.

It's student union politics and there's nothing sadder than seeing washed-up commies like Corbyn and McDonnell playing pied piper to a bunch of gender/racial/Marxist theory students, none of whom have the wisdom to critically analyse the nonsense put in front of them, while the world keeps changing and moving further and further away from their antiquated politics.

You could fit your knowledge of Socialism on the back of a matchbox.

Are you even aware that Lenin was in favour of free enterprise, are you even aware than the Tories have actually used some Marxist theory over the years. You are getting horribly mixed up with Liberals and Socialists and its no surprise because you simply do not understand what you are talking about.

And as for describing Corbyn and McDonell as Commies, that's just hilarious. They are middle of the road Democratic Socialists, i assume given your limited knowledge of politics that you dont realise Communism is authoritarian Socialism

 

[Rascal]

When will you lot learn this simple premise!? People don't want a 'left' Labour, they prefer a centrist Labour. You get a centrist Labour Government in power, you can at least attempt to bring about the changes that benefits people you all 'claim' to want for people. You need to accept that, right now, the national mood overall of the UK is 'Tory-lite' as you call it, or full on, unchecked Conservatives.

Describe the difference between centrist Labour and Left Labour?

 

[Metal Biker]

Describe the difference between centrist Labour and Left Labour?

You're asking the wrong person.

I don't think there is much difference between the two, but among many 'left' Labour commenters on here who abhor 'New' Labour, Starmer and think it's a betrayal of the Labour Party, apparently there is. I've always regarded Labour as being centre-left and that that is the most attractive position amongst the general voting public which results in the most votes for the party that would help form a Labour Government.

When I say 'left' labour I don't mean Left Labour. I mean the likes who support Momentum and the poison they were spouting.

 

[Metal Biker]

Fuck centre labour. Where was centre labour at the last election? I don't want a Tory lite govt therefore I and many others will not vote for it, is that simple enough? Stubborn doesn't enter into it, it's about principles and wanting the right change for the country.

You sound like a petulent child who's having a tantrum because they aren't getting their way.

It's about compromise; Your choices are (as in ones that correlate with the mindset of the majority of the voting public) is a centre-left Labour Party, one which once they are in power has the opportunity to introduce the sorts of changes you claim you want to see implemented, OR a continuation of Conservative Government, possibly with a reduced majority, but still a majority. Where was centre-left Labour at the last election? Suppressed by the Cult of Corbyn, which was rejected.

Centre-left Labour or Right Wing Conservatism. Those are your voting choices that are the most popular. Or you can throw your vote away, because as i've said, the public has shown you and your ilk, time and time again, it doesn't want what you're selling. It's fine if you don't want to vote for 'that sort of Labour', i'm just saying don't be surprised, puzzled or outraged why we keep getting Conservative Governments.

 

[Rascal]

You're asking the wrong person.

I don't think there is much difference between the two, but among many 'left' Labour commenters on here who abhor 'New' Labour, Starmer and think it's a betrayal of the Labour Party, apparently there is. I've always regarded Labour as being centre-left and that that is the most attractive position amongst the general voting public which results in the most votes for the party that would help form a Labour Government.

When I say 'left' labour I don't mean Left Labour. I mean the likes who support Momentum and the poison they were spouting.

As I said before and will say again, Momentum are not left labour, I am left Labour and they are generally to the right of me on most issues and they are few in number. Yes they campaigned for Corbyn, but i also said at the time Corbyn was to the right of me on some issues. Yet i consider myself on the left, but i am fairly Socially conservative and its only economically that i am truly authoritarian.

The left like the right is made up of a number of tribes or broad churches if you will, the right vote split somewhat and lead to the creation of UKIP, although it was basically a one issue party it frightened many one nation Tories who were pro-EU into voting Tory because the thought of leaving the EU was preferable to them to Corbyn.

The left has the same divisions where are some on the left are socially liberally, its the tome you hear a lot about liberal lefties who were both probably metropolitan based and pro EU and where as i am not a liberal and was anti EU

Its only when there is an amalgamation of views in both parties do we get centrist leaning parties of both hues. Stermer however has decided he doesnt want the lefties like me on board which narrows his base down to the socially liberal lefties of which i am not one and as of yet i am unsure if he is Economically authoritarian so i cant support him as its contrary to my views and whilst i did hold my nose and voted for Blair, i became ashamed of doing so because the liberal left in my opinion damaged the Labour party and moved it from its Foot era stance of being anti EU to being pro EU and pro Laissez Faire. Starmer is reiterating that Blairite stance and that makes really uncomfortable as i oppose it on both spectrums. If he was economically authoritarian and fairly socially liberal i may reconsider but at the moment i feel like an outsider without a party that reflects my views and whilst they are infinitley more preferable to the Johnson mob and any Tory regime i can recall i still cant see me voting for Starmer as it would endorse it something i simply dont support.

 

[blueinsa]

As I said before and will say again, Momentum are not left labour, I am left Labour and they are generally to the right of me on most issues and they are few in number. Yes they campaigned for Corbyn, but i also said at the time Corbyn was to the right of me on some issues. Yet i consider myself on the left, but i am fairly Socially conservative and its only economically that i am truly authoritarian.

The left like the right is made up of a number of tribes or broad churches if you will, the right vote split somewhat and lead to the creation of UKIP, although it was basically a one issue party it frightened many one nation Tories who were pro-EU into voting Tory because the thought of leaving the EU was preferable to them to Corbyn.

The left has the same divisions where are some on the left are socially liberally, its the tome you hear a lot about liberal lefties who were both probably metropolitan based and pro EU and where as i am not a liberal and was anti EU

Its only when there is an amalgamation of views in both parties do we get centrist leaning parties of both hues. Stermer however has decided he doesnt want the lefties like me on board which narrows his base down to the socially liberal lefties of which i am not one and as of yet i am unsure if he is Economically authoritarian so i cant support him as its contrary to my views and whilst i did hold my nose and voted for Blair, i became ashamed of doing so because the liberal left in my opinion damaged the Labour party and moved it from its Foot era stance of being anti EU to being pro EU and pro Laissez Faire. Starmer is reiterating that Blairite stance and that makes really uncomfortable as i oppose it on both spectrums. If he was economically authoritarian and fairly socially liberal i may reconsider but at the moment i feel like an outsider without a party that reflects my views and whilst they are infinitley more preferable to the Johnson mob and any Tory regime i can recall i still cant see me voting for Starmer as it would endorse it something i simply dont support.

Rascal mate you are not Labour.

You are a communist.

Momentum was and still are, the left in Labour.

 

[Rascal]

Rascal mate you are not Labour.

You are a communist.

Momentum was and still are, the left in Labour.

I would say I was a Marxist, because Marxists must act as the historical memory of the working class in the continuing fight for dignity, freedom, and socialism. Momentum are not Marxists, some of them are advocates for Blue Labour because momentum itself is a broad church of activists.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I see Starmer has come up with another bold fence sitting policy now. Partially halt the return of universities until we have better testing. I sort of get it, but it strikes me as a fudge and a sort of covid equivalent of withdrawal method contraception. Once again captain hindsight rides partially to the rescue.

 

[Fame Monster]

You could fit your knowledge of Socialism on the back of a matchbox.

Are you even aware that Lenin was in favour of free enterprise, are you even aware than the Tories have actually used some Marxist theory over the years. You are getting horribly mixed up with Liberals and Socialists and its no surprise because you simply do not understand what you are talking about.

And as for describing Corbyn and McDonell as Commies, that's just hilarious. They are middle of the road Democratic Socialists, i assume given your limited knowledge of politics that you dont realise Communism is authoritarian Socialism

1. Communism isn't authoritarian socialism and if you think that's true, I have to question what you know about the subject.

2. Free enterprise, as in the ability to start working as whatever you want and whenever you want, doesn't exist in a fully planned economy. Whether it existed in a Leninist interpretation of socialism, I don't know but that's besides the point as is whether the Tories have practiced Marxist theory.

3. I'm not confusing racial/gender theorists and Momentum types (if that's what you mean by 'liberals'), I think a lot of them are confusing themselves by describing themselves as socialists, which was my point.

4. There is nothing unpatriotic about being socialist and I wouldn't accuse anyone of being unpatriotic by virtue of calling themselves a socialist. There are however a lot of people, in the Labour Party anyway -see the Socialist Campaign Group, who call themselves socialist who are not patriotic in the slightest and hate a lot of aspects of British culture and have a history of siding with Britain's enemies. Maybe they are confusing what Marx said about internationalism with socialism but I think any practical version of socialism would be quite nationalistic if the British state owned the means of production and many of these same people would be the first to reject it.

 

[Metal Biker]

As I said before and will say again, Momentum are not left labour, I am left Labour and they are generally to the right of me on most issues and they are few in number. Yes they campaigned for Corbyn, but i also said at the time Corbyn was to the right of me on some issues. Yet i consider myself on the left, but i am fairly Socially conservative and its only economically that i am truly authoritarian.

The left like the right is made up of a number of tribes or broad churches if you will, the right vote split somewhat and lead to the creation of UKIP, although it was basically a one issue party it frightened many one nation Tories who were pro-EU into voting Tory because the thought of leaving the EU was preferable to them to Corbyn.

The left has the same divisions where are some on the left are socially liberally, its the tome you hear a lot about liberal lefties who were both probably metropolitan based and pro EU and where as i am not a liberal and was anti EU

Its only when there is an amalgamation of views in both parties do we get centrist leaning parties of both hues. Stermer however has decided he doesnt want the lefties like me on board which narrows his base down to the socially liberal lefties of which i am not one and as of yet i am unsure if he is Economically authoritarian so i cant support him as its contrary to my views and whilst i did hold my nose and voted for Blair, i became ashamed of doing so because the liberal left in my opinion damaged the Labour party and moved it from its Foot era stance of being anti EU to being pro EU and pro Laissez Faire. Starmer is reiterating that Blairite stance and that makes really uncomfortable as i oppose it on both spectrums. If he was economically authoritarian and fairly socially liberal i may reconsider but at the moment i feel like an outsider without a party that reflects my views and whilst they are infinitley more preferable to the Johnson mob and any Tory regime i can recall i still cant see me voting for Starmer as it would endorse it something i simply dont support.

This isn't about Momentum, I used that as an example to relay what I meant.

Momentum is 'left' Labour in the view of the public, and a Labour party with that as a driving force will be and has been rejected. 'Corbynistas' have tarnished the Labour Party in the view of the moderates, as now apparently being 'moderate' or having 'centrist views' is considered a negative amongst that same 'left' under discussion, and that same 'left' element believes it is championing the same causes as you are. Guilt by association, i'm afraid and it's down to them latching onto you, rather than the opposite. You may not accept them or identify with them, but sadly for you, they are parading around to anyone who will listen that they on on "your" side.

I'm not even making a statement about whether you should or shouldn't vote for Starmer's Labour or whether New Labour was good or bad. The observation is that ont he whole the British voting public supported it and regarded it as something positive and Starmer bringing the Labour Party back to that 'centrist' position would attract more votes than the alternative you and others advocate, but the public has rejected time and time again.

Is Labour a party which can have various policies, or is it meant to be a particular political ideology realised in a political form? You can argue about the public having the 'wrong' idea about what the Labour Party is meant to mean and meant to fight for, but you can do nothing to change their perception of a party and how they view it and if a centrist Labour position is the 'Labour Party' they want to see, they will call for it and vote for it.

You can choose not to vote for such a party, that's not the issue i'm raising. It's becoming tiresome seeing the "why are the Tories still winning!?!" moaning from the same group of people who claim to understand the British public and what they want, when clearly they have either misjudged or completely misunderstood their intentions, if they are criticising the call from the public for Labour to become more centre-left and less authoritarian, even if that does mean they 'don't understand the Labour Party' as is often claimed.

Is it a case of "this is not the Labour Party you want to see", or is it more a case of "the British Public are not the sort of voters we want to attract"? To make changes, you have to be in control, to get in control you have to win over the public. If you're not winning over the public, how do you expect them to vote for your changes?