Keir Starmer

[Vic]

Have i been intellectually insulted? oh well if the cap fits, first of immigration was the major point on the agenda, the unemployed and low paid voted in the highest numbers for decades, Labour had already said it would raise the population to 70 million and that would adversely affect these two groups for generations,
You do not mind if i think your researchers did not identify the correct groups,, i may have a few friends but i have access to1000s of people some of which work for the research companies.

No insult intended at all.

I don't recall this "raise the population to 70m" policy. Source?

In any case, unemployment was 5% at the time of the referendum, effectively full employment. I know it was a thing that immigration kept wages low, but I'd venture that most immigrants were doing jobs that Brits don't want to do at any price (or at least any economic price).

And the places where immigration was the major point on the agenda were places that didn't have many immigrants. Many Lithuanians working for Nissan in Sunderland?

I have no idea what "access to 1000s of people" means.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

I think if you looked into immigrants would be the tip of the iceberg and merely a symptom of the cause. The real blame lies at the feet of rentier capitalism and the practice of outsourcing. Jobs that might have been inhouse within public sector like cleaners for the NHS will now have poorer pay and poorer conditions, despite the fact that it isn't like just cleaning an office or a retail store. Ditto for Children's residential homes where councils have given up responsibility of maintaining their own. Of course it will be more widespread in private sector (not working on behalf of public sector) like hospitality.

It’s easy to point the finger at immigrants and claim they were coming over here for benefits, when in actual fact it is due to a number of push and pull factors. The obvious being that people are more likely to speak English as a second language, and Liberal Labour markets that make it easy to get into a job without lots of undue bureaucracy.

 

[Rascal]

Labour had already said it would raise the population to 70 million and that would adversely affect these two groups for generations,
.

When did the Labour Party say this?

The UK population is currently 68 million, so are you really saying Labour planned to bring 2 million immigrants to this country?

Even Migration Watch, the ultra right wing think tank acknowledged that Labours plans would cut immigration by 7-1%

 

[Rascal]

Labour had already said it would raise the population to 70 million

I have searched and searched and searched and can find no evidence at all that Labour ever said this.

In fact i have found no evidence at all that anyone ever said it, not even the likes of Farage with a throwaway remark aimed to imitate Labour had said it.

 

[salfordbluetrue]

No insult intended at all.

I don't recall this "raise the population to 70m" policy. Source?

In any case, unemployment was 5% at the time of the referendum, effectively full employment. I know it was a thing that immigration kept wages low, but I'd venture that most immigrants were doing jobs that Brits don't want to do at any price (or at least any economic price).

And the places where immigration was the major point on the agenda were places that didn't have many immigrants. Many Lithuanians working for Nissan in Sunderland?

I have no idea what "access to 1000s of people" means.

When did the Labour Party say this?

The UK population is currently 68 million, so are you really saying Labour planned to bring 2 million immigrants to this country?

Even Migration Watch, the ultra right wing think tank acknowledged that Labours plans would cut immigration by 7-1%

When did the Labour Party say this?

The UK population is currently 68 million, so are you really saying Labour planned to bring 2 million immigrants to this country?

Even Migration Watch, the ultra right wing think tank acknowledged that Labours plans would cut immigration by 7-1%

Jeremy Corbyn said it when he first took power of Labour I felt very let down and it stayed with me. the belief that immigrants only do the work Britons are too lazy to do is very insulting and a lie that the multi national companies put out to keep wages down.

 

[Ban-jani]

I have searched and searched and searched and can find no evidence at all that Labour ever said this.

In fact i have found no evidence at all that anyone ever said it, not even the likes of Farage with a throwaway remark aimed to imitate Labour had said it.

There wasn’t a specific number put on it but Blair and Straw put into practice a designed policy of radically changing the country through mass immigration. It wasn’t just neglect, it was done on purpose.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Jeremy Corbyn said it when he first took power of Labour I felt very let down and it stayed with me. the belief that immigrants only do the work Britons are too lazy to do is very insulting and a lie that the multi national companies put out to keep wages down.

Can you produce evidence? I have just had a look on Google and nothing relevant came up. The UK's population was estimated to reach 70m by 2035, I assume that timeline will be revised due to EU exit, covid and other stuff.

I don't think there was any intention to insitute central planning of increase population via immigration as is so often claimed.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

There wasn’t a specific number put on it but Blair and Straw put into practice a designed policy of radically changing the country through mass immigration. It wasn’t just neglect, it was done on purpose.

Evidence?

 

[Ban-jani]

Evidence?

Read this mate:

 

[salfordbluetrue]

Can you produce evidence? I have just had a look on Google and nothing relevant came up. The UK's population was estimated to reach 70m by 2035, I assume that timeline will be revised due to EU exit, covid and other stuff.

I don't think there was any intention to insitute central planning of increase population via immigration as is so often claimed.

No i can not it was a TV program he said it on, i can not see how the population was estimated to grow without immigration, homosexuality and contraception has had 2nd generation British and above population dropping for a decade

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Read this mate:

View attachment 10653

I was hoping you could summarise or provide his references.

 

[Ban-jani]

I was hoping you could summarise or provide his references.

Well the back of the book states it is the most comprehensive account of the Blair government and even has more Iraq War detail than the Chilcot Inquiry - not written by the author I should add.

His accounts are from Cabinet and non-Cabinet Ministers, aides, journalists at the time who had connections, Civil Servants, friends, family, you name it.

The three things at the start of the book that are startling is that they definitely took a bribe from Eccleston for the F1, the NHS they didn’t have a clue how to manage and just threw money at it and the biggest one, they banned the word ‘immigration’ from Cabinet meetings and Straw and Blair both had the ideologically driven policy of radically changing Britain to become a truly international island, they wanted multicultural and then some, only they didn’t consult the public or put that in their manifesto.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

No i can not it was a TV program he said it on, i can not see how the population was estimated to grow without immigration, homosexuality and contraception has had 2nd generation British and above population dropping for a decade

Don’t take this the wrong way, it's not intended to be insulting or snide, but is it possible your memory is patchy and unreliable after 5 or 6 years?

Former colleagues of mine often remarked on my recall ability, but I wouldn't expect to recall watching a TV interview of a politician very well that long after the event.We have rightwing newspapers that have an obsessional interest in immigration.

If he did say what you believe he did, surely one of their journos would have picked it up (even as a minor story)?
Or is it more likely Corbyn said some bland and banal things in praise of "the contribution of immigrants"?

People living longer would be one, migration watch still only estimated 80% of population growth not all.

 

[salfordbluetrue]

Don’t take this the wrong way, it's not intended to be insulting or snide, but is it possible your memory is patchy and unreliable after 5 or 6 years?

Former colleagues of mine often remarked on my recall ability, but I wouldn't expect to recall watching a TV interview of a politician very well that long after the event.We have rightwing newspapers that have an obsessional interest in immigration.

If he did say what you believe he did, surely one of their journos would have picked it up (even as a minor story)?
Or is it more likely Corbyn said some bland and banal things in praise of "the contribution of immigrants"?

People living longer would be one, migration watch still only estimated 80% of population growth not all.

My memory is awful, my English poor i get butchered on these Politics threads, and it may be Corbyn was not changing a Labour stance, but he did say it, and i was gutted which is why it stuck

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Well the back of the book states it is the most comprehensive account of the Blair government and even has more Iraq War detail than the Chilcot Inquiry - not written by the author I should add.

His accounts are from Cabinet and non-Cabinet Ministers, aides, journalists at the time who had connections, Civil Servants, friends, family, you name it.

The three things at the start of the book that are startling is that they definitely took a bribe from Eccleston for the F1, the NHS they didn’t have a clue how to manage and just threw money at it and the biggest one, they banned the word ‘immigration’ from Cabinet meetings and Straw and Blair both had the ideologically driven policy of radically changing Britain to become a truly international island, they wanted multicultural and then some, only they didn’t consult the public or put that in their manifesto.

Thank you for summarising.
There are some big claims from the author though aren't there. If the plan was to transform Britain into a multicultural society, why not try to influence migration to less culturally diverse places? Most of the non-White/non EU immigration was just into places who already had immigrant populations.

One of the sources so often quoted disputes ever saying there was a grand plan based on multiculturalism.

Former Labour adviser denies immigration plot to undermine right

Andrew Neather says remarks over Nick Griffin TV appearance, raised by Tories in Commons, were twisted out of all recognition

theguardian.com

 

[Ban-jani]

Thank you for summarising.
There are some big claims from the author though aren't there. If the plan was to transform Britain into a multicultural society, why not try to influence migration to less culturally diverse places? Most of the non-White/non EU immigration was just into places who already had immigrant populations.

One of the sources so often quoted disputes ever saying there was a grand plan based on multiculturalism.

Former Labour adviser denies immigration plot to undermine right

Andrew Neather says remarks over Nick Griffin TV appearance, raised by Tories in Commons, were twisted out of all recognition

theguardian.com

Because, despite the general premise that they were a highly organised and effective government, they were all over the place once the “cool brittania” party and honeymoon had finished. The plan wasn’t actioned as well as it could be.

What they did specifically do was reduce the hurdles you needed to get through to claim asylum in the UK, there were a very large number of people, under New Labour, who came when the restrictions were lowered, who were economic migrants. It was definitely pre planned and they knew they were doing it. Bower’s book doesn’t claim to know how many in total but inside New Labour there were many voices of concern of this policy and the breakdown of trust towards asylum seekers from the public.

It’s important to note that Bower is an author that is a critique of individuals, it’s what he does, however the amount of quotes and sources cited is astonishing. He details conversations between Blair and Straw, as well as Brown and Blair because his sources include Cabinet Members.

Bower was a Blairite, he voted for him 3 times and he said it was one of his most difficult writings, as he loved Blair at the time.

He’s just written one on Johnson last year, called “the gambler”, I am going to read that soon, once I have finished what I want to in the Bible.

To offer some balance against my heavy criticisms of New Labour’s immigration policy, I happen to have admiration for how they managed the economy, before the financial crash, which wasn’t their fault obviously. That approach of private market with strong public sector and significant safety net for those that need it is my economic vision for the country.

I just cannot stand the immigration and liberal social policy.

Will leave Iraq out of it for now as we’ll be here all month.

 

[Rascal]

Jeremy Corbyn said it when he first took power of Labour I felt very let down and it stayed with me. the belief that immigrants only do the work Britons are too lazy to do is very insulting and a lie that the multi national companies put out to keep wages down.

If he had of said that it would have been all over the RW media and there is simply no evidence of him or anyone in the Labour party ever saying that.

I have spent hours scouring the internet for evidence of this and there is nothing.

That you have linked it with one of Migration Watch's supposed academic studies makes me think you have been duped into believing something that simply never ever happened.

 

[Vic]

Jeremy Corbyn said it when he first took power of Labour I felt very let down and it stayed with me. the belief that immigrants only do the work Britons are too lazy to do is very insulting and a lie that the multi national companies put out to keep wages down.

What's a lie? That Brits don't like warehouse work shifts that start at 6 a.m., or like picking fruit in cold fields or packing food in cold processing plants? There's a huge skills shortage, and Brits won't study the STEM subjects.

Looking through the posts today, I knew what to look for:

It ain't ignorance that causes all the trouble in this world. It's the things people know that ain't so. - Edwin Armstrong​

 

[Rascal]

the belief that immigrants only do the work Britons are too lazy to do is very insulting and a lie that the multi national companies put out to keep wages down.

This is a continuation of a theme developed in the book Britannia Unchained.

The authors of that book were Conservative MPs
Priti Patel
Liz Truss
Kwasi Kwarteng
Chris Skidmore
Dominic Raab

It is a RW libertarian tract that excoriated the UK’s “bloated state, high taxes and excessive regulation” and, most memorably, derided British workers as “among the worst idlers in the world” (“We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”) The UK, it declared, should “stop indulging in irrelevant debates about sharing the pie between manufacturing and services, the north and the south, women and men”

It urged the UK post Brexit to become a Tiger economy akin to Singapore and its an advocate for what could be described as End Game Thatcherism in that it has an absolute belief in the freedom of markets to deliver.

Its Randianism on crack cocaine.

 

[salfordbluetrue]

What's a lie? That Brits don't like warehouse work shifts that start at 6 a.m., or like picking fruit in cold fields or packing food in cold processing plants? There's a huge skills shortage, and Brits won't study the STEM subjects.

Looking through the posts today, I knew what to look for:

It ain't ignorance that causes all the trouble in this world. It's the things people know that ain't so. - Edwin Armstrong​

One of Britain`s biggest Warehouses Amazon does not have a problem getting Brits to work the 6am shift, it has a problem keeping them, hence it`s TV advertisement on job satisfaction, it is also a big investor of the micro chip that will make all these jobs redundant, Farmers struggling for crop pickers is farmers refusing to invest in technology and picking the cheap lower than the minimum wage worker option.
there was a skill shortage, decades ago we brought doctors in from mainly India and ended up with kabab shop on every corner, we still have a doctor shortage but now have a nurse shortage as well, where is your local student nurse accommodation?