Mancini Football Management Skills

dancity19 said:
Danielmanc said:
jay_mcfc said:
Manchester City Football Club Premier League Champions 2011/2012

Fucking ridiculous this kind of shit is being regurgitated in the November after winning the league despite being unbeaten in the division.

Some people just never learn. Keep going on about the sum of parts and Mancini will keep delivering trophies.

Same old bollocks from the same old suspects mate

Comments like that are about as useful as saying 'Mancini out he's rubbish'. Add to the debate. Read what people are on here, and you will see it is a discussion of his pros and cons. Not from everyone, but just read.

All your points are valid dancity19.

What is apparent is that oppositions are pressing us further up the park giving us less time on the ball hence the sideways movement and slower build up.

Two on Silva all the time is making it harder for him to set up play the way he did last season.

We haven't adapted to what is required to better overcome this yet.

Individuals are also down on confidence and form from what they delivered last season.

Injuries and lack of stability in the starting lineup week in week out , often more than 5 changes doesn't help.
 
The way I see it is people should be allowed to question anybody, be it a player or manager or board. As long as question is genuine and backed by logic and evidence then it''s fair game.

I just resent the insults to posters that query. It's not right and doesn't bode well for us. In life we question the actions of our government, our boss, even family members. You don't rule them off limits because you voted, are paid or related to them. It's just absurd logic.

I put our loss in form down to new signings which have weakened squad (called it before it became popular to do so). I put it down to injuries and I put it down to change in formation and personal but we have had to adapt due to injuries.

To anybody that really doesn't rate Mancini i say judge after Xmas and at least afford him the opportunity to have a selection of first team players. He has earned patience anyway and calls for change are premature. Tailing off a bit here but my point remains. It's not just my club, it's yours too. You may or may not rate a certain player or our manager but you should be afforded a fair crack of the whip making statements and asking questions aslong as you're basing on fact.
 
NipHolmes said:
The way I see it is people should be allowed to question anybody, be it a player or manager or board. As long as question is genuine and backed by logic and evidence then it''s fair game.

I just resent the insults to posters that query. It's not right and doesn't bode well for us. In life we question the actions of our government, our boss, even family members. You don't rule them off limits because you voted, are paid or related to them. It's just absurd logic.

I put our loss in form down to new signings which have weakened squad (called it before it became popular to do so). I put it down to injuries and I put it down to change in formation and personal but we have had to adapt due to injuries.

To anybody that really doesn't rate Mancini i say judge after Xmas and at least afford him the opportunity to have a selection of first team players. He has earned patience anyway and calls for change are premature. Tailing off a bit here but my point remains. It's not just my club, it's yours too. You may or may not rate a certain player or our manager but you should be afforded a fair crack of the whip making statements and asking questions aslong as you're basing on fact.

I mean no offence when I say this but if you have only been here since January you won't really understand a lot of what some of us are talking about.
 
NipHolmes said:
The way I see it is people should be allowed to question anybody, be it a player or manager or board. As long as question is genuine and backed by logic and evidence then it''s fair game.

I just resent the insults to posters that query. It's not right and doesn't bode well for us. In life we question the actions of our government, our boss, even family members. You don't rule them off limits because you voted, are paid or related to them. It's just absurd logic.

I put our loss in form down to new signings which have weakened squad (called it before it became popular to do so). I put it down to injuries and I put it down to change in formation and personal but we have had to adapt due to injuries.

To anybody that really doesn't rate Mancini i say judge after Xmas and at least afford him the opportunity to have a selection of first team players. He has earned patience anyway and calls for change are premature. Tailing off a bit here but my point remains. It's not just my club, it's yours too. You may or may not rate a certain player or our manager but you should be afforded a fair crack of the whip making statements and asking questions aslong as you're basing on fact.

I think how we are perfroming come January/ February will determine Mancini's future.

We are only winning games because of the talent we have at our disposal, our performances have been in comparable to last season shocking and I can't see Mansour wanting to see City just scrape through games depsite winning, he wants to be entertained.
 
Freestyler said:
jay_mcfc said:
Manchester City Football Club Premier League Champions 2011/2012

Fucking ridiculous this kind of shit is being regurgitated in the November after winning the league despite being unbeaten in the division.

Some people just never learn. Keep going on about the sum of parts and Mancini will keep delivering trophies.


just wondering. cause imo we won it on team strength not under man management.

DD's post on here.. perfection.

My stance on Mancini has been known for a couple of years. I keep trying to give him the benefit doubt but I always end up going back to my original stance.

The question people need to debate is whether we have won things because of him or in spite of him.

My opinion is that a really good manager makes the total better than the sum of the parts. Jurgen Klopp at Dortmund would be a very good example of someone who built a team up on very little money, moulded together an excellent side of unproven names to become back to back champions and became a team that looks sure to qualify at our expense. Indeed, one that taught us a footballing lesson despite those players having as little Champions League experience as City the club has, which seems to be the staple excuse for us round these parts.

Roberto Mancini's team is less than the sum of the parts in my eyes. Certainly this season. A really good manager would have seen us win the league by a good few points last season, without the need for the United thowaway, because his tactical buffoonery on the road cost us many points. Similarly, that tactical buffoonery is costing us more points and masses of goals this year. I would also suggest that we would have won the Carling Cup too last year with another manager at the helm.

Our squad last season was by far and away the best in the league yet it so nearly ended up with nothing. That was because he changed his tactics away from home. It should never have been that way. Far too often we respect lesser opposition too much. Instead of going for the throat when the opponents are on the rack, we sit back, stroll around and play a containing game when the chances are that we'd have wrapped the game up playing to our attacking players strengths. This team would be excellent if it was allowed to express itself but it isn't.

This season there will be even less of an excuse for those tactics because everything was in place and we don't have to contend with the first time nerves.

It would be folly to get rid of Mancini now but I would suggest that a trophyless year may well see searching questions asked at the top, especially if we don't really challenge for the title.

I think that the players look lost out there at the moment, and I'm getting vibes from the players that they just don't understand what the manager is trying to do at all.

It has always been my opinion that it was the quality of the players that won us the title in spite of the leadership rather than because of it.

I think this unbeaten start papers over a lot of cracks. Tactically Mancini baffles me on a weekly basis. Yeah he's won an FA Cup in first but Portsmouth have won it for fucks sake without the same level of investment that Mancini has had.

Yeah he's also won the premier league but again this was more down to united bottling it than a Mancini masterstroke. We capitulated against the arsenal side in a must win game to go 8 pts behind.

He then played the same team for 6 consecutive league games and we won all 6, at the min he doesn't even play the same back 4 for 2 games in a row let alone the same team.

All this is before we even mention ours champions league campaigns. Yes they have been rough groups but I honestly believe that Mancini has single handedly caused our failure in Europe with extremely popes tactics.

+10000
You hit the nail on the head there.
Since last winter our teamplay has gone downhill :
_ we were pressing with so much efficiency, getting the ball quicker and making opposition strugling to even get near our box
- we were playing with faster pace, getting the ball moving between the lines so much quicker, thus having clearer shot at opponent goals
We now seem a hole different team : so much slower with nearly zero pressing capacity, at times leting opposition to look like Barcelona against us ( Dortmund at home, Arsenal at home ).

Since he got in charge, Mancini's work to build a squad teamplay has just not been enough.

When you think of Arsenal, Madrid, Manure, Barca, Chelsea, etc.. you immediatly are able to determine what are the characteristics of their trademark teamplay, it is clearly recognizable. Wenger for example has build over the decade a squad that fancies fast paced short distance passes and one-two's, BacoonFace teams always rely on fast wingers and players that rushes into the box, Mourinho's teams have always been a solid defence that quickly switches to a full force counter-attack.

Over all those years Mancini and his staff have done so little to tatoo a trademark teamplay to our squad and it is now begining to unfold.

You would think that after three years a first class management staff would have done much better ...
 
jay_mcfc said:
NipHolmes said:
The way I see it is people should be allowed to question anybody, be it a player or manager or board. As long as question is genuine and backed by logic and evidence then it''s fair game.

I just resent the insults to posters that query. It's not right and doesn't bode well for us. In life we question the actions of our government, our boss, even family members. You don't rule them off limits because you voted, are paid or related to them. It's just absurd logic.

I put our loss in form down to new signings which have weakened squad (called it before it became popular to do so). I put it down to injuries and I put it down to change in formation and personal but we have had to adapt due to injuries.

To anybody that really doesn't rate Mancini i say judge after Xmas and at least afford him the opportunity to have a selection of first team players. He has earned patience anyway and calls for change are premature. Tailing off a bit here but my point remains. It's not just my club, it's yours too. You may or may not rate a certain player or our manager but you should be afforded a fair crack of the whip making statements and asking questions aslong as you're basing on fact.

I mean no offence when I say this but if you have only been here since January you won't really understand a lot of what some of us are talking about.

I lurked for 3 months or so and had a harder job hence I didn't post. I can't really speak from experience here but as I said, if a points valid then it should be respected rather than disrespected. I know we have closet rags here and WUMS but I myself have been insulted by the 'forum police' for asking questions. Just isn't on, in my book anyway. It's a forum and people think differently so should be allowed to air thoughts and we debate as a whole. If we all nodded and agreed it would be A) Pointless and B) Because we never asked anything gritty and wanted to toe the party line.
 
Freestyler said:
just wondering. cause imo we won it on team strength not under man management.

DD's post on here.. perfection.

My stance on Mancini has been known for a couple of years. I keep trying to give him the benefit doubt but I always end up going back to my original stance.

The question people need to debate is whether we have won things because of him or in spite of him.

My opinion is that a really good manager makes the total better than the sum of the parts. Jurgen Klopp at Dortmund would be a very good example of someone who built a team up on very little money, moulded together an excellent side of unproven names to become back to back champions and became a team that looks sure to qualify at our expense. Indeed, one that taught us a footballing lesson despite those players having as little Champions League experience as City the club has, which seems to be the staple excuse for us round these parts.

Roberto Mancini's team is less than the sum of the parts in my eyes. Certainly this season. A really good manager would have seen us win the league by a good few points last season, without the need for the United thowaway, because his tactical buffoonery on the road cost us many points. Similarly, that tactical buffoonery is costing us more points and masses of goals this year. I would also suggest that we would have won the Carling Cup too last year with another manager at the helm.

Our squad last season was by far and away the best in the league yet it so nearly ended up with nothing. That was because he changed his tactics away from home. It should never have been that way. Far too often we respect lesser opposition too much. Instead of going for the throat when the opponents are on the rack, we sit back, stroll around and play a containing game when the chances are that we'd have wrapped the game up playing to our attacking players strengths. This team would be excellent if it was allowed to express itself but it isn't.

This season there will be even less of an excuse for those tactics because everything was in place and we don't have to contend with the first time nerves.

It would be folly to get rid of Mancini now but I would suggest that a trophyless year may well see searching questions asked at the top, especially if we don't really challenge for the title.

I think that the players look lost out there at the moment, and I'm getting vibes from the players that they just don't understand what the manager is trying to do at all.

It has always been my opinion that it was the quality of the players that won us the title in spite of the leadership rather than because of it.

I think this unbeaten start papers over a lot of cracks. Tactically Mancini baffles me on a weekly basis. Yeah he's won an FA Cup in first but Portsmouth have won it for fucks sake without the same level of investment that Mancini has had.

Yeah he's also won the premier league but again this was more down to united bottling it than a Mancini masterstroke. We capitulated against the arsenal side in a must win game to go 8 pts behind.

He then played the same team for 6 consecutive league games and we won all 6, at the min he doesn't even play the same back 4 for 2 games in a row let alone the same team.

All this is before we even mention ours champions league campaigns. Yes they have been rough groups but I honestly believe that Mancini has single handedly caused our failure in Europe with extremely popes tactics.

I didn't see this until now.

So, we won the league on team strength? Yep that should do it if the manager is good enough.

'The question we really need to debate is whether it's because of or in spite of him?' Why is that? All I know is we are the premier league champions under him. If I can say that for the next 2 or 3 years I won't give a fuck about anything else.

You talk about Jurgen Klopp but his situation is very different. He has done a fantastic job but nothing is to say he will come here and do better than Mancini, a manager who has proven his credentials at many different clubs and is the current premier league winning manager.

If winning the league is being less than your sum of parts then fuck me, I hope we are that shit every year.

'We had the best squad in the league?' Yet in Jan and February during our worst months we had lost our entire spine of the team and couldn't recover.

Away form; Wasn't as amazing as our incredible home form but we managed to get 89 points. Not bad

'This team would be excellent if it was allowed to express itself but it isn't. ' That bit is just utter rubbish and not worthy of comment.

Champions league: Fair enough we've been shite and he deserves the criticism he gets for that.
 
sam-caddick said:
NipHolmes said:
The way I see it is people should be allowed to question anybody, be it a player or manager or board. As long as question is genuine and backed by logic and evidence then it''s fair game.

I just resent the insults to posters that query. It's not right and doesn't bode well for us. In life we question the actions of our government, our boss, even family members. You don't rule them off limits because you voted, are paid or related to them. It's just absurd logic.

I put our loss in form down to new signings which have weakened squad (called it before it became popular to do so). I put it down to injuries and I put it down to change in formation and personal but we have had to adapt due to injuries.

To anybody that really doesn't rate Mancini i say judge after Xmas and at least afford him the opportunity to have a selection of first team players. He has earned patience anyway and calls for change are premature. Tailing off a bit here but my point remains. It's not just my club, it's yours too. You may or may not rate a certain player or our manager but you should be afforded a fair crack of the whip making statements and asking questions aslong as you're basing on fact.

I think how we are perfroming come January/ February will determine Mancini's future.

We are only winning games because of the talent we have at our disposal, our performances have been in comparable to last season shocking and I can't see Mansour wanting to see City just scrape through games depsite winning, he wants to be entertained.


It could be a bit of what the premiership will be about this season.

Manure have won 8 games but haven't ripped teams apart week in week out.

Last week and against Wigan and Newcastle were probably their three games this season in total that could lay claims to convincing and impressive performances.

Chelski flew out of the blocks but it will be interesting how they fare especially if they get through to the knock out stage.

When the grounds get heavy and damp how will their light midfield go?

West Brom and Everton are probably doing as well in terms of consistency as anybody so far.

If we all think we have the most upside to come it can't be all bad but I agree our stalwarts of last year are all well down on what we would expect of them and lets hope that doesn't continue for too much longer.
 
I am not so sure Mancini knows how to play to the strength of his players.

Of all the strikers, perhaps only Tevez can play the role of the "false nine". Not many strikers can play this role. The only strikers that I know is Messi, Tevez and Suarez. Both Messi and Suarez shine for their team because theirs manager play to their strength. But Tevez was strangely on and off, perhaps he isn't clearly favored by Mancini.

Tevez loves to "dictate" football. Most of the players, senior or young ones, listen to his "command" on the pitch. He is danger playing inside the hole. He is danger playing just outside of the box, close to the center of the goal. That is a "false nine" position, as he can shift in and out of the box at will. Thus he can score all kinds of goal, from the simple tap-in to a few solo and long range goal.

When Tevez was a skipper before, the team were without Aguero and Nasri. But they still played better than today despite Tevez mostly play as a lone striker.

Aguero loves to stay upfront, closer to the goal so he can use his speed and footwork to pounce on goals. He isn't really the false nine type of player in this sense. More like a upfront striker. His reluctant to track back at time perhaps confirm this.

Both Balotelli and Dzeko are upfront striker. Not suitable as second striker.

The Barcelona formation is normally David Villa and Pedro at left right side, with Messi as false nine. Xavi or Iniesta (or other playmakers) in the centre to dictate play. Busquet as sweeper just in front of two CB.

But when Mancini wanted to deploy 3 strikers, he put Balotelli/Dzeko upfront, with Tevez and Aguero on left right side behind him. It didn't play that well because he didn't use the strikers correctly. Perhaps the best formation is Tevez as false nine, just behind Aguero/Balotelli/Dzeko. Both left right strikers have to track back at time as well.

The midfield Mancini can put in Silva and Nasri to dictate and control the midfield, like Xavi or Iniesta. Yaya/Milner/Barry/Javi as sweeper. Since Silva is injured, Yaya might replace him to play alongside Nasri. But I am not so sure Yaya can dictate play like Xavi/Iniesta does as he is originally not a playmaker, but a holding midfielder.

Yaya's strength is that he can burst forward at times to threaten the opposition. But this day his track back is really slow. His defending skill is poor at times. He has the speed to burst forward but track back too slow like a flat tire. How come he ALWAYS play 90 minutes and start every game as long as he isn't injured? It's a mystery to me.

I suspect Yaya's contract has a stipulation/clause that he MUST play 90 minutes and start every game, or he might be compensated without following this? If this is the case, it shackles Mancini's freedom to change the midfield, as Yaya clearly has his weakness as well. And his weakness might be taken advantage of by the opposition. They know Yaya always play full time and always start game as well.

Some rumour says that the club do not want to renew his contract, because of this clause/restriction? Everyone's guess.

But Mancini has 4 holding midfielders - Yaya, Javi, Milner and Barry, it is clear that he prefers to use 2 holding midfielders. With 2 holding midfielders in Yaya (always him) and Javi/Milner/Barry, plus Silva and Nasri if 2 of them uninjured, they can only use 2 strikers. Thus the formation become 4-2-2-2. Badly no width and can only rely on FB to act as wingers.

Or he may prefer using 3 holding midfielders. Leaving either Silva or Nasri on the bench. Stable (perhaps too cautious and too safe), but lack of creativity if Silva or Nasri is shackled by opposition.

If he wants to use 3 strikers + 2 holding midfielders + 2 playmakers, the defense have to be 3 men. But 3-men defense didn't work so well. Not much width as well because the left and right striker act like winger, and 3 defenders can't go forward. Thus the formation 3-2-2-3 looks "weird"

The 4-2-3-1 formation didn't work so well as well. 4 defenders, Yaya plus another as holding midfielders, Silva and Nasri on left and right side flanking the false nine Tevez, with Aguero up-front. It didn't work so well because both Silva and Nasri being deployed to left and right side of the field. They should have worked better just behind the false nine Tevez, not too far from left and right. The formation should be 4-2-2-1-1. But formation like this again lack of width, getting exposed left and right side. So there is always a dilemma.

Which mean if Mancini want to use 2 playmakers, he shouldn't use 2 holding midfielders. There is always some confusion in midfield about who cover who and who cover what ground.

The best formation (I think) for Mancini is the Barcelona formation: 4-3-3. This formation won't lack width because the FB and left right strikers can provide the width. 4 defenders, 1 holding midfielder in Yaya (as he is too slow to track back, he should stay back often), 2 playmaker in Silva and Nasri, Tevez as false Nine, 2 left right strikers in Aguero/Balotelli/Dzeko. They can't play this if Tevez is not used as Aguero hardly a false nine or second striker.

Mancini's problem is having too many players - 4 top strikers and 4 holding midfielders, and only 2 playmakers.

When you have too many players, it gives you too many options. Too many options lead to too many formation change. Too frequently the formation change and player change possibly cause the disjointed and poor performance.

In short, Mancini failed to keep it simple. Barcelona keep everything simple. They always use 4-3-3, or more effectively 4-1-2-1-2.

Just my 2 cents.
 
BillyShears said:
jay_mcfc said:
Manchester City Football Club Premier League Champions 2011/2012

Fucking ridiculous this kind of shit is being regurgitated in the November after winning the league despite being unbeaten in the division.

Some people just never learn. Keep going on about the sum of parts and Mancini will keep delivering trophies.

Stop crying Jay. If you genuinely had the belief you purport to have in Mancini you wouldn't spend so much time wringing your hands and gnashing your teeth at other peoples opinions of the manager. Usual suspects, same old shit ... the thing lost on you is that includes you.
I hear that is the way of forums. You should see the religion and politics threads in the Cellar.....
 

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