Fuzzmaster101 said:Show me where I have had a biased and blinkered view against Mancini? I don't agree with his tactics. That's it. I don't dislike the guy. In fact I like him a lot from what I've seen of him. However when someone doesn't agree with his style of play or his tactics it doesn't mean they have an agenda against him, it means they have a problem with his ideas. Is that simple enough for you to understand?Mancio said:did you never see Inter ? sneijder do the same things silva do , if they always start from a central position they are easily man-marked and go lost in the game .
Re my " biased and blinkered defence of Mancini is beyond stupidity" i want just say a thing , are you sure your "biased and blinkered critic of mancini" is so clever ?
And for those who aren't chosen to play in that coveted position,they're put in another area of the field where they're less effective.Somebody has already pointed out the stats for crosses from Kolarov and Milner.They're not wingers,it's not their fault.Damocles said:Mancio said:did you never see Inter ? sneijder do the same things silva do , if they always start from a central position they are easily man-marked and go lost in the game .
Re my " biased and blinkered defence of Mancini is beyond stupidity" i want just say a thing , are you sure your "biased and blinkered critic of mancini" is so clever ?
This.
Attacking midfielders don't really exist any more with the prevalence of the Makelele stoppers. However, people do still play there. Whether it is Rooney/VDV/Tevez who drops back from the top, Yaya/Gerrard/Lampard who get there from a bit deeper, or Silva and the rest who come from in wide.
It's the position that everybody wants to play in, but nobody can declare it solely theirs.
This is a good thing. With 3 or 4 players all vying to get in the most dangerous position on a pitch, it should give us some fluidity up top and some unpredictability.
We aren't quite there as an attacking team, as our off the ball movement is pretty shoddy due to our preoccupation with sorting out the defence ('build from the back'), but these things take a bit of time to develop as players need to be able to see the runs of their teammates before they happen.
It'll come.
Damocles said:This is a good thing. With 3 or 4 players all vying to get in the most dangerous position on a pitch, it should give us some fluidity up top and some unpredictability.
Or congestion in the middle with Silva roaming around centrally, Yaya playing CAM, Balottelli cutting inside and Tevez dropping back. And when the fullbacks offers options wide and get in to good crossing positions there's usually no bodies on the box
We aren't quite there as an attacking team, as our off the ball movement is pretty shoddy due to our preoccupation with sorting out the defence ('build from the back'), but these things take a bit of time to develop as players need to be able to see the runs of their teammates before they happen.
Agree to some extent, the set-up of our midfield is part of the problem though.
It'll come.
Fuzzmaster101 said:Let me clarify
--------De Jong--------Yaya----------
AJ-------------------------------Silva
-----------Tevez---------------------
--------------Dzeko (or Balo)---------
This puts Tevez in the SS or No10 position dropping in to midfield to link up play (this is how Manure often play Rooney alongside Little Piss).
or this
-------De Jong----------Yaya---------
----------------Silva------------------
AJ--------------------------------Balo
---------------Tevez-----------------
Where Silva plays the No10 role like Fabregas at Arsenal where Tevez is RVP, AJ is Walcott and Balo is Nasri.
Yaya doesn't play either of these formations well in the position of either Tevez in the first one or Silva in the second, yet that's where he plays. Again this is my opinion.
My view was from watching the game, my estimate of 50% was just from what I saw and how I interpretted it. I did state quite clearly I was only refering to breaks from defence not general play when I'm sure Yaya's passing was excellent. I hate stats BTW because they show and prove nothing.Dax777 said:I was quite annoyed when I read this. Coz like a lot of what I read on Bluemoon, it is nothing but perception reinforced by pre-existing belief. In short, BIAS!!!Fuzzmaster101 said:I'm not here to slag off the current manager, or any of the players. I'd just like to air something that's bugging me.
In my opinion Mancini's biggest fault is that he believes Yaya Toure is a premiership quality attacking midfielder. I don't doubt Yaya's qualities and one game out of maybe 6 or 7 he has an excellent game there (usually against poor opposition). But for me he's just not good enough in this roll.
Look at premiership teams who play with either an AM or a number 10 dropping off into midfield to link up play. Tottenham (Modric, Van Der Vaart) Chelsea (Lampard), Arsenal (Fabregas), Liverpool (Gerrard), Ushited (Rooney). I just don't think Yaya is as good as any of these players in this roll. For me our two more defense-minded Mids should be two from Barry, De Jong, Yaya, Vieira, Milner, Zab. Then the AM position should be given to either Silva or Tevez (The Rooney roll if playing alongside Balo or Dzeko) or at a pinch Milner.
Against Chelsea we had a big man up front so Silva would have been ideal as the AM (Or number 10) with Milner and AJ on the wings to play balls into the box. This just never happened. I can barely remember Dzeko having a chance (except the one he stuffed up when Yaya dummied a touch). It seemed that 50% of the breaks we got (and there weren't many) broke down due to a poor ball by Yaya or a lack of vision by him.
Like I said I don't want to slag the player off, I think he has many fine qualities, just not as the lynchpin of our midfield. For me the AM is the most important roll in a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1.
Thoughts?
I'll ignore the first 2 paragraph which is the OP's opinion and he is free to have one about Mancini. But I'll start with the 3rd Paragraph instead. First off, Yaya is a premiership quality footballer. Of that there is no question. And he needs not be better than any of the others mentioned. Even though this season he has been better than Lampard, who by the way is on the list above.
As for the 4th Paragraph which I have in bold (as it is the only one that contains some semblance of a summary of facts), it is absolutely hogwash. The same kinda blame it on Barry crap that often passes here for analysis. I.e. when you think something is wrong, pick a player you don't like and claim it his fault by generalizing about a particular instance.
But if you want the facts, here it is. Dzeko did not get a lot of chances mainly because he often lost the ball when he got it. He lost 13 passes after receiving the ball. Most of those passes from Yaya and Silva. Second, Dzeko did not get enough chances coz most of Kolarov's crosses were poor. Kolarov put in 9 crosses of which only 2 found targets. One to Micah and the other to Dzeko. The third most important reason why Dzeko did not get many chances, is because James Milner failed to put any crosses into the box. He was only able to complete 1 cross. And the cross was unsuccessful. These 3 factors, Dzeko losing possession a lot (more than anyone else), Kolarov's poor delivery, and Milner's (non-delivery) consituted about 80% of the dearth of scoring chances to Dzeko. Which makes one wonder, how does the OP arrive at Yaya Toure as his culprit :?
Oh, by the way, in plotting Yaya;s graph, the strategy was quite clear, clearer than with any other player. Get the ball out to the wings. About 65% of Yaya's passes were to Kolarov and Milner (i.e. the guys who were supposed to get Dzeko the ball.) And contrary to the claims of the OP, Yaya Lost the ball 7 times against Chelsea, compared to 15 by Kolarov, 13 by Dzeko, 12 by Milner, 10 by Richard, and 9 by Silva. He was on Par with Barry and Lescott who also both lost it 7 times. The only 2 players with safer completions were Kompany with 4 and De Jong with 1.
Yet somehow the OP amd many others who agree with him have concluded, it was Yaya who's continuous losing of the ball all game, made it impossible for Dzeko to get a chance.
Before folks proffer an opinion, can they just try to review the facts for a change- You know, check chalkboards, go to the OS and re-watch the highlights just to refresh your recollection.
I mean, it would be really nice if we have a little less of the bias that stinks up this place :( Well, I guess I should add, In my humble opinion.
Silva and Tevez both track back and hassle players on the ball. I think Silva is excellent at it personally. They are the players I'm suggesting to step in instead of Yaya.Mancio said:Fuzzmaster101 said:Let me clarify
--------De Jong--------Yaya----------
AJ-------------------------------Silva
-----------Tevez---------------------
--------------Dzeko (or Balo)---------
This puts Tevez in the SS or No10 position dropping in to midfield to link up play (this is how Manure often play Rooney alongside Little Piss).
or this
-------De Jong----------Yaya---------
----------------Silva------------------
AJ--------------------------------Balo
---------------Tevez-----------------
Where Silva plays the No10 role like Fabregas at Arsenal where Tevez is RVP, AJ is Walcott and Balo is Nasri.
Yaya doesn't play either of these formations well in the position of either Tevez in the first one or Silva in the second, yet that's where he plays. Again this is my opinion.
you will never see that formations played by mancini (or at least very rarely) becouse none of AJ balo and silva do a good defending job.
Dax777 said:
Fuzzmaster101 said:My view was from watching the game, my estimate of 50% was just from what I saw and how I interpretted it. I hate stats BTW because they show and prove nothing.Dax777 said:I was quite annoyed when I read this. Coz like a lot of what I read on Bluemoon, it is nothing but perception reinforced by pre-existing belief. In short, BIAS!!!
I'll ignore the first 2 paragraph which is the OP's opinion and he is free to have one about Mancini. But I'll start with the 3rd Paragraph instead. First off, Yaya is a premiership quality footballer. Of that there is no question. And he needs not be better than any of the others mentioned. Even though this season he has been better than Lampard, who by the way is on the list above.
As for the 4th Paragraph which I have in bold (as it is the only one that contains some semblance of a summary of facts), it is absolutely hogwash. The same kinda blame it on Barry crap that often passes here for analysis. I.e. when you think something is wrong, pick a player you don't like and claim it his fault by generalizing about a particular instance.
But if you want the facts, here it is. Dzeko did not get a lot of chances mainly because he often lost the ball when he got it. He lost 13 passes after receiving the ball. Most of those passes from Yaya and Silva. Second, Dzeko did not get enough chances coz most of Kolarov's crosses were poor. Kolarov put in 9 crosses of which only 2 found targets. One to Micah and the other to Dzeko. The third most important reason why Dzeko did not get many chances, is because James Milner failed to put any crosses into the box. He was only able to complete 1 cross. And the cross was unsuccessful. These 3 factors, Dzeko losing possession a lot (more than anyone else), Kolarov's poor delivery, and Milner's (non-delivery) consituted about 80% of the dearth of scoring chances to Dzeko. Which makes one wonder, how does the OP arrive at Yaya Toure as his culprit :?
Oh, by the way, in plotting Yaya;s graph, the strategy was quite clear, clearer than with any other player. Get the ball out to the wings. About 65% of Yaya's passes were to Kolarov and Milner (i.e. the guys who were supposed to get Dzeko the ball.) And contrary to the claims of the OP, Yaya Lost the ball 7 times against Chelsea, compared to 15 by Kolarov, 13 by Dzeko, 12 by Milner, 10 by Richard, and 9 by Silva. He was on Par with Barry and Lescott who also both lost it 7 times. The only 2 players with safer completions were Kompany with 4 and De Jong with 1.
Yet somehow the OP amd many others who agree with him have concluded, it was Yaya who's continuous losing of the ball all game, made it impossible for Dzeko to get a chance.
Before folks proffer an opinion, can they just try to review the facts for a change- You know, check chalkboards, go to the OS and re-watch the highlights just to refresh your recollection.
I mean, it would be really nice if we have a little less of the bias that stinks up this place :( Well, I guess I should add, In my humble opinion.
How many of those passes misplaced by Kolarov or Milner were during what I would consider Key Breaks from defence? I bet you don't have the stats on that (Because stats are pointless and meaningless).
How many times did Yaya make a pass which he completed (therefore a good stat) but there was a better pass on which he failed to spot? Where are your stats for that? (Nowhere because stats are meaningless).
Did I say that Yaya wasn't a premiership quality player full stop? No just not good enough in the role he's been given. In my opinion. (I'm sorry I don't have any pointless stats to back that up).
I don't give accurate stats because they are mis-leading I just give my opinion in regards to what I've watched. It is a truer representation of what I'm seeing than any stat could ever be.
In my opinion 50% of the key counter attacks where Chelsea were left light at the back broke down due to a poor pass or poor vision by Yaya. (is that better for you?) Have you got any stats to refute that? No because it's an opinion based on what I witnessed with my own eyes. Better by far than any stat.
And the nail gets hit firmly on the head.You and Mancini have the same philosophy Mancio.You think damage limitation rather than the damage we could do to the opposition.Always safety first.If we set up in either of those formations,the opposition wouldn't be too keen to commit bodies forward for fear of what we'd do to them.Mancio said:Fuzzmaster101 said:Let me clarify
--------De Jong--------Yaya----------
AJ-------------------------------Silva
-----------Tevez---------------------
--------------Dzeko (or Balo)---------
This puts Tevez in the SS or No10 position dropping in to midfield to link up play (this is how Manure often play Rooney alongside Little Piss).
or this
-------De Jong----------Yaya---------
----------------Silva------------------
AJ--------------------------------Balo
---------------Tevez-----------------
Where Silva plays the No10 role like Fabregas at Arsenal where Tevez is RVP, AJ is Walcott and Balo is Nasri.
Yaya doesn't play either of these formations well in the position of either Tevez in the first one or Silva in the second, yet that's where he plays. Again this is my opinion.
you will never see that formations played by mancini (or at least very rarely) becouse none of AJ balo and silva do a good defending job.