Middle East Conflict (merged) | Iran launch missile attack after Israel invade Lebanon

[Magicpole]

It might be earlier in thread or another one in the past.


I made a point like yours about detesting netayahu and his bastards in government and was shut down by a poster who I thought was okay. Only to get a diatribe about being anti semetic and a supporter of terrorism etc.

From a mod? You can expect an irrational response from a poster, but fuck me, if it was a mod then that's bang out of order. Pointing out Israel's brutality at times is not antisemitic or supporting terrorism. Sadly it's just a fact. If some nation came in to my country I woukd fight and I wouldn't take any pish about being a terrorist fighting for my own country, in my own fucking country. Israel has a right to exist, but, after the history if the Jewish people, they should try and get a settlement, two state. The alternative is never ending suffering. Having cunts like Netanyobbo onky makes things worse. One blessing is that rapist **** Trump isn't in power, or it would be so much worse.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

If some nation came in to my country I woukd fight and I wouldn't take any pish about being a terrorist fighting for my own country, in my own fucking country.

That's exactly what happened in 1948 as it happens. Except it was a number of Arab nations invading the newly formed state of Israel. Had they let them be, Israel and the Arabs, both inside and outside Israel, wouldn't be in this situation.

 

[Magicpole]

That's exactly what happened in 1948 as it happens. Except it was a number of Arab nations invading the newly formed state of Israel. Had they let them be, Israel and the Arabs, both inside and outside Israel, wouldn't be in this situation.

I get that, but they set up a state in an existing country. That's why the Arabs invaded. If Germany had won the war, and occupied us, would you have followed Churchil's warning of how we would react, or would you have rolled over? We look at that declaration with pride. If someone else does it, they are all cunts? The mistake was, remember Britain wanted out because our troops were being killed by Israelis, including Begin. Who went in to be leader. It's a total shit show and one I can't see being fixed by hostility. In fact, because it's the parties of God, it never will be, sadly.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I get that, but they set up a state in an existing country. That's why the Arabs invaded.

No they didn't. There was no country called Palestine and no one invaded it. This is a complete falsehood put about by people who simply don't know the history. The last time there was a state called that, it was a Jewish ruled, Roman province, until the revolt in 79AD when most Jews were killed or exiled (although some remained).

The territory was then part of various empires until it passed to the control of the Ottoman Empire in 1516. It was 400 years later that the British defeated the Turks to occupy the place. The history since then is a fairly dismal one, with various vested interests, both colonial (French and British) and Arab all trying to establish control.

I'd highly recommend the book 'A Line In The Sand' for a detailed description of that period, when the Middle East was cynically carved up with lots of new countries created (including Jordan, Iraq & Syria) and given to various tribal chiefs as a reward for their support. Great Britain was left with a mandate for the territory that now comprises Israel, the West Bank & Gaza but couldn't get agreement on what to do with it.

Eventually they gave up the Mandate granted by the League of Nations in 1923 and handed to problem back to the newly-formed United Nations. That was after an Anglo-American Commission made recommendations that both the UK and USA said they'd accept, but then reneged on that pledge when they didn't like various parts of the recommendations.

The UN voted on the partition plan, which gave far less to Israel, and far more to the Arabs, than they eventually got. The Israelis decared independence (tomorrow is the 73rd anniversary incidentally) and a number of Arab armies went to war against the new state. The thing was, the plan if they won wasn't to give it back to the Arab residents, as a sovereign state. Syria saw it as part of their country (a Greater Syria), as did the Egyptians.

The pre-1967 borders were established after the War of Independence and stayed that way until 1967. In those 19 years, Jordan annexed the West Bank rather than establish an independent state, while the Egyptians retained military control over Gaza. Both could have been part of a Palestinian state if they'd wanted that but those Arab countries didn't want that. They could have absorbed the refugees into the various Arab states, bt they were the ones who actually forst practiced apartheid against Palestinians, treating them very much as second-class citizens and denying them rights, while keeping them in squalid refugee camps.

In 1967 the Russians completely misled their Arab clients about Israel's intentions, lying to them about a build-up of forces that was simply false. So the Arabs mobilised but Israel, feeling threatened, struck first and ended up occupying the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza. And that's when it all went downhill. In 1970, Jordan struck against the Palestinians in their country, in what became known as Black September, killing thousands of them. Following the war in 1973, peace was established between Egypt, Jordan and Israel and another opportunity was missed to solve the problem of the Palestinians once and for all.

And since then, as the Israelis have expanded settlements, the Iranians have established their proxy armies Hezbollah and Hamas, and both sides' leaderships have got more extreme and belligerent.

Now go away and read some history then come back when you want to have an adult discussion based on facts. Until then stop peddling myths and fairy tales.

 

[Magicpole]

No they didn't. There was no country called Palestine and no one invaded it. This is a complete falsehood put about by people who simply don't know the history. The last time there was a state called that, it was a Jewish ruled, Roman province, until the revolt in 79AD when most Jews were killed or exiled (although some remained).

The territory was then part of various empires until it passed to the control of the Ottoman Empire in 1516. It was 400 years later that the British defeated the Turks to occupy the place. The history since then is a fairly dismal one, with various vested interests, both colonial (French and British) and Arab all trying to establish control.

I'd highly recommend the book 'A Line In The Sand' for a detailed description of that period, when the Middle East was cynically carved up with lots of new countries created (including Jordan, Iraq & Syria) and given to various tribal chiefs as a reward for their support. Great Britain was left with a mandate for the territory that now comprises Israel, th West Bank & Gaza but couldn't get agreement on what to do with it.

Eventually they gave up the Mandate granted by the League of Nations in 1923 and handed to problem back to the newly-formed United Nations. That was after an Anglo-American Commissiion made recommendations that both the UK and USA said they'd accept, but then reneged on that pledge when they didn't like various parts of the recommendations.

The UN voted on the partition plan, which gave far less to Israel, and far more to the Arabs, than they eventually got. The Israelis decared independence (tomorrow is the 73rd anniversary incidentally) and a number of Arab armies went to war against the new state. The thing was, the plan if they won wasn't to give it back to the Arab residents, as a sovereign state. Syria saw it as part of their country (a Greater Syria), as did the Egyptians.

The pre-1967 borders were established after the War of Independence and stayed that way until 1967. In those 19 years, Jordan annexed the West Bank rather than establish an independent state, while the Egyptians retained military control over Gaza. Both could have been part of a Palestinian state if they'd wanted that but those Arab countries didn't want that. They could have absorbed the refugees into the various Arab states, bt they were the ones who actually forst practiced apartheid against Palestinians, treating them very much as second-class citizens and denying them rights, while keeping them in squalid refugee camps.

In 1967 the Russians completely misled their Arab clients about Israel's intentions, lying to them about a build-up of forces that was simply false. So the Arabs mobilised but Israel, feeling threatened, struck first and ended up occupying the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza. And that's when it all went downhill. In 1970, Jordan struck against the Palestinians in their country, in what became known as Black September, killing thousands of them. Following the war in 1973, peace was established between Egypt, Jordan and Israel and another opportunity was missed to solve the problem of the Palestinians once and for all.

And since then, as the Israelis have expanded settlements, the Iranians have established their proxy armies Hezbollah and Hamas, and both sides' leaderships have got more extreme and belligerent.

Now go away and read some history then come back when you want to have an adult discussion based on facts. Until then stop peddling myths and fairy tales.

I do know all that, but thanks for writing it. The point I was making is the Palestinians has been living there forever and deserved a better deal from everyone and since then they haven't. In relation to fairy tales are you saying Begin and his guys didn't kill British soldiers? It may not have been a sovereign state called Palestine, but the indigenous peoples living there were predominantly non Jewish under the Ottimans. And as interesting and illuminating as your post is, it doesn't change the fact the Israelis have acted deplorably at times.

 

[KPXBLN]

No they didn't. There was no country called Palestine and no one invaded it. This is a complete falsehood put about by people who simply don't know the history. The last time there was a state called that, it was a Jewish ruled, Roman province, until the revolt in 79AD when most Jews were killed or exiled (although some remained).

The territory was then part of various empires until it passed to the control of the Ottoman Empire in 1516. It was 400 years later that the British defeated the Turks to occupy the place. The history since then is a fairly dismal one, with various vested interests, both colonial (French and British) and Arab all trying to establish control.

I'd highly recommend the book 'A Line In The Sand' for a detailed description of that period, when the Middle East was cynically carved up with lots of new countries created (including Jordan, Iraq & Syria) and given to various tribal chiefs as a reward for their support. Great Britain was left with a mandate for the territory that now comprises Israel, th West Bank & Gaza but couldn't get agreement on what to do with it.

Eventually they gave up the Mandate granted by the League of Nations in 1923 and handed to problem back to the newly-formed United Nations. That was after an Anglo-American Commissiion made recommendations that both the UK and USA said they'd accept, but then reneged on that pledge when they didn't like various parts of the recommendations.

The UN voted on the partition plan, which gave far less to Israel, and far more to the Arabs, than they eventually got. The Israelis decared independence (tomorrow is the 73rd anniversary incidentally) and a number of Arab armies went to war against the new state. The thing was, the plan if they won wasn't to give it back to the Arab residents, as a sovereign state. Syria saw it as part of their country (a Greater Syria), as did the Egyptians.

The pre-1967 borders were established after the War of Independence and stayed that way until 1967. In those 19 years, Jordan annexed the West Bank rather than establish an independent state, while the Egyptians retained military control over Gaza. Both could have been part of a Palestinian state if they'd wanted that but those Arab countries didn't want that. They could have absorbed the refugees into the various Arab states, bt they were the ones who actually forst practiced apartheid against Palestinians, treating them very much as second-class citizens and denying them rights, while keeping them in squalid refugee camps.

In 1967 the Russians completely misled their Arab clients about Israel's intentions, lying to them about a build-up of forces that was simply false. So the Arabs mobilised but Israel, feeling threatened, struck first and ended up occupying the Golan Heights, West Bank and Gaza. And that's when it all went downhill. In 1970, Jordan struck against the Palestinians in their country, in what became known as Black September, killing thousands of them. Following the war in 1973, peace was established between Egypt, Jordan and Israel and another opportunity was missed to solve the problem of the Palestinians once and for all.

And since then, as the Israelis have expanded settlements, the Iranians have established their proxy armies Hezbollah and Hamas, and both sides' leaderships have got more extreme and belligerent.

Now go away and read some history then come back when you want to have an adult discussion based on facts. Until then stop peddling myths and fairy tales.

The trouble with your account is that it's entirely focused on states. There wasn't and isn't a state called 'Palestine' so what's the problem?

The problem is that this is about people. People have human rights. States are obliged to respect, uphold and protect those rights, as well as to respect international law.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I do know all that, but thanks for writing it. The point I was making is the Palestinians has been living there forever and deserved a better deal from everyone and since then they haven't. In relation to fairy tales are you saying Begin and his guys didn't kill British soldiers? It may not have been a sovereign state called Palestine, but the indigenous peoples living there were predominantly non Jewish under the Ottimans. And as interesting and illuminating as your post is, it doesn't change the fact the Israelis have acted deplorably at times.

Begin and others pre-1948 were doing what Hamas are doing now. In fact Palestine was sparsely populated for quite a while and there was large scale immigration from other Arab countries.

And I absolutely agree that Israel has acted deplorably on many occasions. There is no absolute right here. Both sides are wrong.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The trouble with your account is that it's entirely focused on states. There wasn't and isn't a state called 'Palestine' so what's the problem?

The problem is that this is about people. People have human rights. States are obliged to respect, uphold and protect those rights, as well as to respect international law.

So why did Jordan annexe the West Bank. They did exactly what the Israelis are being accused of doing, yet no one made a fuss. Apart from the Palestinians of course, who were effectively the vitims of apartheid.

And in 1948, there were as many Jews expelled from Arab and North African countries as there were Palestinian refugees. What about the rights of Iraqi, Iranian, Yemeni, Egyptian, Syrioan, Moroccan, Tunisian and other Jews who were citizens of those countries?

The point I keep trying to make is that painting one side as 100% right, and the other as 100% wrong, is 100% wrong. There is lots of fault on both sides, leading to the tragic situation they have today.

 

[KPXBLN]

So why did Jordan annexe the West Bank. They did exactly what the Israelis are being accused of doing, yet no one made a fuss. Apart from the Palestinians of course, who were effectively the vitims of apartheid.

And in 1948, there were as many Jews expelled from Arab and North African countries as there were Palestinian refugees. What about the rights of Iraqi, Iranian, Yemeni, Egyptian, Syrioan, Moroccan, Tunisian and other Jews who were citizens of those countries?

The point I keep trying to make is that painting one side as 100% right, and the other as 100% wrong, is 100% wrong. There is lots of fault on both sides, leading to the tragic situation they have today.

I agree that it's complex and there is plenty of blame to go round. Where we part ways, I think, is on your focus on the misdeed of states all around the region (not just inside the borders of present-day Israel/Palestine), rather than on the rights of the people (all the people!) who live inside those borders. I also think that the behaviour of middle east and north african states towards their jewish populations, though truly shameful, doesn't have a bearing on the rights and wrongs of what happens in Israel/Palestine today.

 

[Magicpole]

Begin and others pre-1948 were doing what Hamas are doing now. In fact Palestine was sparsely populated for quite a while and there was large scale immigration from other Arab countries.

And I absolutely agree that Israel has acted deplorably on many occasions. There is no absolute right here. Both sides are wrong.

I never denied that. A shit show that will never be resolved fully, but better contained if the Palestinians are helped economically to develop a viable state. Even then, the parties of God will never let it go, but a diminishing of their power can be achieved if the people's lives improve. That's why I support the two state model and an end to ever expanding Jewish settlements by their crazies.