Middle East Conflict

[jimharri]

Please; don't use another poster's username in a thread title without that person's permission. Particularly in a thread as contentious is this is likely to turn out. It's a bit different to wishing a poster a happy birthday.

 

[FlemishDuck]

Maybe it’s also to muddy the waters and have a slanging match about terminology, rather than actually debate the real issues that need resolving.

Or maybe i fancy a friendly forum where i can easily start a philosophical debate withought there needing to be any ill intentions to it or that being perceived so by others. Feel free to comment but do not feel forced to the matter. I have no personal axes to grind here, no'r am i going to take anything personal.

The philosophical question rather that i want people to ask if any ideology that aims to arbitrarily create a "homestate" does not have an element of expansionism inherit with its ideal? If a philosophical discussion of that nature does not interest you then feel free to enjoy your day in any other way. ;)

 

[metalblue]

Zionism has many different branches. I’m not sufficiently educated enough to know them all to any sufficient extent.

I fundamentally believe in one general principle that all peoples have a right to peaceful co-existence and don’t give a fuck how it’s labelled.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Is there any other country in the world where one has to be so specific about being against a particular government rather than its people.

History and its baggage.

Its not really hard to just say the Istaeli government are shit. I feel some like the controversy.

On bluemoon what am I thinking? I retract that last sentence:-)

No need to retract. Many Jews, who consider themselves Zionists in the purest sense of the word, hate the current government and the fanatics and bigots it represents.

But I'd turn your first sentence round and ask if there's any other country in the world where one can mask racism by criticism of the government. And as someone who's been to the USA frequently, I'd argue that the Trump government were dangerous lunatics, but I love the American people who are almost unfailingly friendly, generous and hospitable.

 

[west didsblue]

Zionism is a wide movement that covers the whole spectrum of politics and religion. At it's core is the definition posted above. The origin of Zionism was the late 19th century, before the establishment of the state of Israel, when a very significant number of Jews lived in the Russian 'Pale of Settlement', which covered what's now Western Russia, through Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, Moldova, Lithuania, etc. They weren't allowed to live outside this area and were increasingly subject to antisemitism including violent pogroms. That's why there was mass migration in the late91th and early 20th centuries, which was greeted in the UK in an even more vehement fashion that the 'Stop The Boats' rhetoric, and led to the Aliens Act of 1905.

The idea of a Jewish homeland, where they'd be free from persecution, was mooted and the Zionist movement started from that. Initially it was a left-ish, more secular movement, and opposed by the more traditional, religious grouping. People started making their way to what was then Ottoman-ruled territory. So that's the original definition - those who wanted a Jewish homeland where they could be secure and live peacefully. Nothing more than that.

Over time the Zionist movement has morphed into that wider and more fractured group, encompassing very secular and left-wing groups (who are more sympathetic to the Palestinian desire for statehood) and the right-wing, religious, settler grouping, who are expansionist and support annexation what they see as biblical Israel, and are (to put it mildly) very unsympathetic and quite aggressive and violent towards the Palestinian residents on the West Bank. They are akin to the sort of 'patriots' we saw on the streets of Southport, Middlesbrough and other places.

That's why using 'Zionist' as a blanket term is completely meaningless. Effectively, they mean 'Jews' but use 'Zionist' to cover their racism.

Similarly, people who use the term 'anti-Zionist' could range from those horrified at the current actions in Gaza (which is perfectly understandable) but who accept an Israeli state within the 1948 borders (or thereabouts) to those who don't accept Israel's right to exist and who wish to see it destroyed. They are antisemites, not anti-Zionists.

Great description Colin.
This thread only started as a result of @FlemishDuck being pedantic about one aspect of this post.
https://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/...-july-august-24.365402/page-485#post-17393542

Do you agree that the content of the picture in that post is antisemitic? @FlemishDuck doesn't seem to be able to bring himself to agree with that assessment.

 

[FlemishDuck]

That's why using 'Zionist' as a blanket term is completely meaningless. Effectively, they mean 'Jews' but use 'Zionist' to cover their racism.

See i kinda disagree with that notion. That is to say i dont know about the motivations of the people you describe, however i have used Zionism as a term to specifically point to Israeli expansionism, as i believe there is a strong philosophical argument to make that there is a "strong ideological core component of expansionism to the ideal of Zionism", and that furthermore Zionism can be scrutinized as an ideology for that reason irregardless that this does not need to have bearing on the wellbeing of people within Israel.

I do understand that some have a different impression of what Zionism means, and are as many describe here against the current expansionism. And i do understand it would be annoying to be attributed an ideal to which you dont subscribe simply because of how people differently interpret the term.

It is a semantics debate for sure, but perhaps its not completely fair that one would argue that "anyone arguing against the ideoligy of zionism, has malicious intentions we should attribute to it". Atleast in the thought that you would ascribe all of them to be racist. I would think that for some of them zionism exactly means that which many others dont agree with either for what regards Israeli policy's in particular to colonization.

 

[FlemishDuck]

This thread only started as a result of @FlemishDuck being pedantic about one aspect of this post.

Oh i am being pedantic, but i would argue it started by you holding up some proverbial argumentative red flag like a Spannish toreador to charge on and get the thread derailed, whereas i thought the philosophical aspect on the matter of what zionism means kinda engaging so i charged that flag, where you were "for some reason" explaining zionism in a more self defined fashion in that thread. ;)

So you had a link where 59% people said they were zionists and 90% claimed they supported a Jewish homeland and you equated that to "90% are zionists" because "zionist=supporting jewish homeland, and only that", right?

Do you get why this is a bit of a matter of contention?

 

[west didsblue]

Oh i am being pedantic, but i would argue it started by you holding up some proverbial argumentative red flag like a Spannish toreador to charge on and get the thread derailed, whereas i thought the philosophical aspect on the matter of what zionism means kinda engaging so i charged that flag, where you were "for some reason" explaining zionism in a more self defined fashion in that thread. ;)

Do you think that poster in Finchley was ok?

 

[bugsyblue]

Yeah I understand both views but tend to side with West Dids here. I’m a Zionist in that I believe in Israel’s right to exist but I hate their government and believe Palestine should have its own state.

You sound like a reasonable decent human being. Amazing how so many people can’t/won’t see it this way

 

[FlemishDuck]

Do you think that poster in Finchley was ok?

Do you think this is a proper rhetorical device in relation to the argument we are having?