Middle East Conflict

See i kinda disagree with that notion. That is to say i dont know about the motivations of the people you describe, however i have used Zionism as a term to specifically point to Israeli expansionism, as i believe there is a strong philosophical argument to make that there is a "strong ideological core component of expansionism to the ideal of Zionism", and that furthermore Zionism can be scrutinized as an ideology for that reason irregardless that this does not need to have bearing on the wellbeing of people within Israel.

I do understand that some have a different impression of what Zionism means, and are as many describe here against the current expansionism. And i do understand it would be annoying to be attributed an ideal to which you dont subscribe simply because of how people differently interpret the term.

It is a semantics debate for sure, but perhaps its not completely fair that one would argue that "anyone arguing against the ideoligy of zionism, has malicious intentions we should attribute to it". Atleast in the thought that you would ascribe all of them to be racist. I would think that for some of them zionism exactly means that which many others dont agree with either for what regards Israeli policy's in particular to colonization.

The reason I think the term Zionist is meaningless, and I agree with the way @west didsblue and @Prestwichblue95 have laid out their argument, is that unless you a) ascertain the context of the post containing the word and b) ascertain the intensions of the poster, it's almost impossible to know exactly which precise definition in which they're using the term.

Lots of people do use in the way you describe it, the expansionist, settler ideology, but lots of people also use it as blanket term for Jews in general, but you also have lots of Jewish people who consider themselves Zionists but disagree with the eradication of the Palestinian state/people, and you have Jewish people who consider themselves Zionists and do agree with the eradication of the Palestinian state/people.

If everyone who uses this term means something slightly different to the everyone else, then the term loses its meaning in any kind of serious debate. Saying the Israeli government and the expansionist, settler ideology is probably far clearer, if that's what you're referring to when you say Zionist, and it doesn't result in tedious back and forths about what words mean and arguing over definitions. Because when you say Zionist, and when I say Zionist we probably aren't talking about the same thing. Using clearer language would go a long way in all of us actually hearing each other and then having meaningful discussions.
 
A matter of contention was generated on the thread "Uk far right trouble" - the thread about riots in the UK on a unrelated topic

West Didsblue contentious argument



My main counterargument to that principle:



Hence my argument is that zionism is not restricted solely to the belief that the Jewish people should have "a homeland", its also an ideoligy that is used for the expansionism of the Jewish state.

Feel free to discuss


By asking us to define Zionism, aren't you trying to nail a jelly to a wall?

With so much painful history, conflict, hatred, pride, abuse, and more, defining people's views and understanding of the word, it's impossible to define.

Sure - you can look it up in a dictionary, or research it's etymology, or you could make an argument about how usage has corrupted or changed it's meaning.

But ultimately, you're trying to define a word that means different things to different people. If you're using the term in an argument, or someone uses it when arguing with you, then be prepared to be misunderstood. Or better still, use this thread to understand that all these different explanations, and meanings are attached to it, so perhaps don't treat it as shorthand for anything.
 
I also wanted to ask @west didsblue if it was possible that the “Nazis” referenced in the poster he shared was meant to represent antisemites, hence why “antisemites” where not explicitly written?
No I would say it is unrealistic to assume that.

My very simple point was that poster in Finchley, which supposedly was a call for the community to unite against the far right, included terminology that would be clear to anyone in Finchley that would alienate a sizeable proportion of the population who consider themselves Zionists irrespective of the definition used. Trying to apply an intellectual argument that everyone should assume that Zionists referenced on that poster only means the ones that support the excesses of the Netanyahu government, and antisemitism doesn’t need to be mentioned because it’s covered by Nazis is naive in the extreme.

It was pertinent to the other thread because nearly everyone is united against the far right thugs and this poster is totally counterproductive to that aim.

I have no comment on the rest of your post other than I agree with it in large part.
 
I was going to post this in the Antisemitism thread but it must have been moved or something... so going to post here.

In Irish/English history I don't know if there was the equivalent terms to Zionism or Antisemitism. There certainly was hatred and self-righteousness.

If there were similar terms then they were probably very much shaped by time.

Our opinions in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, 20s have changed because of the lack of harmful policies/actions etc and the existence of helpful policies/actions. There's obviously still some bad feeling but it is feint now in comparison to years ago.

My point I guess is that people's feeling of what is right and wrong and who is right and wrong is based on what is in front of them at that point in time. Needs must I guess.

In Irish/English history many people pushed in the right directions to reduce hatred gradually over time. I thank them all.

Is there any hope at all that politicians in the Middle East could be as successful eventually? Are they even trying?
 
No I would say it is unrealistic to assume that.

My very simple point was that poster in Finchley, which supposedly was a call for the community to unite against the far right, included terminology that would be clear to anyone in Finchley that would alienate a sizeable proportion of the population who consider themselves Zionists irrespective of the definition used. Trying to apply an intellectual argument that everyone should assume that Zionists referenced on that poster only means the ones that support the excesses of the Netanyahu government, and antisemitism doesn’t need to be mentioned because it’s covered by Nazis is naive in the extreme.

It was pertinent to the other thread because nearly everyone is united against the far right thugs and this poster is totally counterproductive to that aim.

I have no comment on the rest of your post other than I agree with it in large part.
Fair enough. I just wanted to suggest that possible reason “antisemites” were not mentioned in the poster, as I have actually had conversations with people that (misguidedly) used “Nazis” as shorthand for “antisemites” (or some variation of that), so didn’t know if that could have been the case here.
 
I was going to post this in the Antisemitism thread but it must have been moved or something... so going to post here.

In Irish/English history I don't know if there was the equivalent terms to Zionism or Antisemitism. There certainly was hatred and self-righteousness.

If there were similar terms then they were probably very much shaped by time.

Our opinions in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, 20s have changed because of the lack of harmful policies/actions etc and the existence of helpful policies/actions. There's obviously still some bad feeling but it is feint now in comparison to years ago.

My point I guess is that people's feeling of what is right and wrong and who is right and wrong is based on what is in front of them at that point in time. Needs must I guess.

In Irish/English history many people pushed in the right directions to reduce hatred gradually over time. I thank them all.

Is there any hope at all that politicians in the Middle East could be as successful eventually? Are they even trying?
No doubt a massive oversimplification on my part, but I’d say the Irish/English troubles were rooted in politics/governance.

I’d say the Arab/Israeli troubles are rooted in core religious beliefs and the subsequent ‘god given rights’ and calls to annihilation therein.

Politics can resolve the first one. Not sure how the second one gets resolved absent one of the groups being annihilated.
 
Humans are inherently lazy and I think a lot on social media use the term Zionism meaning anti the Israeli government, rather than typing out anti-Israeli government every time in discussions.

There are some that use the term nefariously, but it’d be hard to put a percentage to that.

There probably needs to be another term coined to mean anti-Israeli government to remove the need for this debate to be had perpetually.
Has colonisation not been going on since the foundation of the state?
This ‘Zionist’ right wing government may have hijacked a term but what does it matter. It’s clear to most, what is going on.

I have purposely, for my own sanity, stayed out of this thread and this debate, because I find it highly emotive and cannot understand how, otherwise very intelligent and compassionate people in here, can defend what seems clear to me. This is pure opportunism by Netanyahu and his support.
It seems to have nothing to do with hostage release. As long as there are hostages he can justify anything he likes.
I don’t believe they give a damn about the hostages. They are at best, collateral damage and martyrs.

I’ll say no more, but what is happening and what possibly is about to happen is an abomination that the West for political self interest, allows.
 
The reason I think the term Zionist is meaningless, and I agree with the way @west didsblue and @Prestwichblue95 have laid out their argument, is that unless you a) ascertain the context of the post containing the word and b) ascertain the intensions of the poster, it's almost impossible to know exactly which precise definition in which they're using the term.

The reason why i commented on West Didsblue, is that he misquoted his sources and redfined Zionism for the purpose of defending a misquantification of zionist support in society.
 
By asking us to define Zionism, aren't you trying to nail a jelly to a wall?


The reason why i commented on West Didsblue, is that he misquoted his sources and redfined Zionism for the purpose of defending a misquantification of zionist support in society.

I would argue it would be unfair to attribute anything but the desire to scrutinize a verifiably incorrect claim by a poster that presents a contentious and very debatable definition of Zionism.
 
Has colonisation not been going on since the foundation of the state?
This ‘Zionist’ right wing government may have hijacked a term but what does it matter. It’s clear to most, what is going on.

I have purposely, for my own sanity, stayed out of this thread and this debate, because I find it highly emotive and cannot understand how, otherwise very intelligent and compassionate people in here, can defend what seems clear to me. This is pure opportunism by Netanyahu and his support.
It seems to have nothing to do with hostage release. As long as there are hostages he can justify anything he likes.
I don’t believe they give a damn about the hostages. They are at best, collateral damage and martyrs.

I’ll say no more, but what is happening and what possibly is about to happen is an abomination that the West for political self interest, allows.
I was merely trying to suggest that the term Zionism is used with different meanings and that that in itself then dominates the debate.

If another term was coined, it could then remove the need for that element of the debate.

I haven’t commented much on this thread either for similar reasons to yourself, along with the total futility of doing so.
 

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