Middle East Conflict

goalmole said:
I'm surprised there are still people who think that Israel is a liberal democracy and not a fascist apartheid state.
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Israel is a democratic nation. Its citizens are able to vote regardless of their ethnic origin, religion, level of religious observance, gender, sexuality or other defining characteristic. It's an imperfect voting system though, as it tends to mean that the minority parties set the agenda. But the Israeli people have a choice and with the nature of the coalitions often being fragile, they have to exercise that choice regularly.

Gaza (and the West Bank) last had elections 17 years ago. In Gaza, Hamas won that election and, following a civil war, executed many Fatah members (and also gay people). It rules by terror and has effectively left the people it supposedly represents in a permanent state of war and subjugation, by its refusal to cooperate in any meaningful way with Israel. Yet the 2m people in Gaza have no choice in the matter.

The term "fascist" is often defined as one that doesn't allow any opposition. Now, which one best fits that definition?
 
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Postman Pep said:
You'd think the Israeli police would have better things to do ...





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Torah Judaism is the Twitter account of the Neturei Karta group who are a fringe group of a few hundred people who are not only rabidly against the state of Israel but make out the vast majority of Jews aren’t real Jews. They even sent delegates to Iran’s notorious Holocaust denial conference about 15 years ago. Their Twitter account has no criticism of the Hamas attack, just a somewhat questionable video of a woman saying how pleasant the Hamas terrorists were when they broke into her home on Saturday, played with the kids and left them unharmed. Although they’re not the only anti-Zionist ultra religious group, they’re probably the only blatantly antisemitic one. They are the go-to group that will appear as guest speakers at the more extreme Palestine rallies to give the extremists some credibility. Most are in the ultra orthodox Mea Shearim area of Jerusalem but sadly there’s a small group of them in Salford as well.
 
west didsblue said:
Torah Judaism is the Twitter account of the Neturei Karta group who are a fringe group of a few hundred people who are not only rabidly against the state of Israel but make out the vast majority of Jews aren’t real Jews. They even sent delegates to Iran’s notorious Holocaust denial conference about 15 years ago. Their Twitter account has no criticism of the Hamas attack, just a somewhat questionable video of a woman saying how pleasant the Hamas terrorists were when they broke into her home on Saturday, played with the kids and left them unharmed. Although they’re not the only anti-Zionist ultra religious group, they’re probably the only blatantly antisemitic one. They are the go-to group that will appear as guest speakers at the more extreme Palestine rallies to give the extremists some credibility. Most are in the ultra orthodox Mea Shearim area of Jerusalem but sadly there’s a small group of them in Salford as well.
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One more thing about them. Their UK leader is on record as saying Holocaust victims deserved it because if they didn’t deserve it God would have saved them. No doubt they think the same about last Saturday’s terrorist attack.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Israel is a democratic nation. It's citizens are able to vote regardless of their ethnic origin, religion, level of religious observance, gender, sexuality or other defining characteristic. It's an imperfect voting system though, as it tends to mean that the minority parties set the agenda. But the Israeli people have a choice and with the nature of the coalitions often being fragile, they have to exercise that choice regularly.

Gaza (and the West Bank) last had elections 17 years ago. In Gaza, Hamas won that election and, following a civil war, executed many Fatah members and gay people. It rules by terror and has effectively left the people it supposedly represents in a permanent state of war and subjugation, by its refusal to cooperate in any meaningful way with Israel. Yet the 2m people in Gaza have no choice in the matter.

The term "fascist" is often defined as one that doesn't allow any opposition. Now, which one best fits that definition?
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But remember, they're only criticising the actions of the Israeli Government, not the existance of Israel itself...
 
Interesting how many media outlets refer to it as the Israel-Hamas War whilst the BBC calls it the "Israel-Gaza War". Just a little thing I noticed.
 
west didsblue said:
One more thing about them. Their UK leader is on record as saying Holocaust victims deserved it because if they didn’t deserve it God would have saved them. No doubt they think the same about last Saturday’s terrorist attack.
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You need to explain the full context of their beliefs, as many highlight them as 'anti-Zionist' without understanding that they are the ultimate zionists.

They're ultra-religious and believe the Old Testament is a literal, historically accurate document. They believe wholeheartedly and unquestioningly in a Jewish god. They're not the only religious Jews with those beliefs but NK extend that to not accepting that the (political) state of Israel can exist because god didn't create it, man did. It never occurs to these cretins that the god they believe in and worship might have played some part in that, in the same way that they believe god stood aside during the Holocaust and only saved the people he wanted.

They believe in the coming of the Messiah and that only this event will restore Israel to the Jewish people. But their version of "Israel" isn't going to be anything like the one today, which is a multi-cultural democracy where you can choose to follow your religion, which might be Islam or Christianity, or no religion at all. Their "Israel" is going to be one where you're either fully with them, believing in the bible as a literal document and living the way that belief demands, or you're an 'unbeliever'. There's no in-between.

Anyone who doesn't follow that line will be struck down by their god and, let's face it, if he can cause 6m Jews, many religious or even ultra-religious, to be murdered, he's not going to have a problem with striking down anyone else. And in case you think it doesn't affect you, because you live outside Israel, I've been neglectful in not pointing out that their "Israel" is the whole planet, not the strip of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. So they're not "anti-zionists" but are actually the most extreme zionists imaginable.

If you think these guys are heroes therefore, I'd suggest getting your black hats and tefillin (not today obviously as it's the Sabbath), growing your beards and payehs (sidelocks), ditching the bacon butties and start learning Torah pretty quickly.
 
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The blue phantom said:
There's several posters who still think like this

View attachment 95835
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But why are there a handful of border crossings controlling access to and from Gaza? Why do Israel and Egypt control what goes in? Why are many Gazans still living in misery?

There's not an Israeli boot permanently on the ground in Gaza. There's no settlements. To join the Palestinian Legislative Council they had to come to an accord with Fatah that they would accept an independent state within the post-1948 borders. The Palestinians in Gaza are living under a Palestinian leadership, totally within the 1948 borders that Hamas allegedly accepts. So why is there a problem?

You know the answer to that. It's because Hamas, rather than accept Gaza as an independent state living securely between its neighbours, Israel and Egypt, continues to wage war on them and countries at war don't tend to have open borders.
 
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Prestwich_Blue said:
Israel is a democratic nation. It's citizens are able to vote regardless of their ethnic origin, religion, level of religious observance, gender, sexuality or other defining characteristic. It's an imperfect voting system though, as it tends to mean that the minority parties set the agenda. But the Israeli people have a choice and with the nature of the coalitions often being fragile, they have to exercise that choice regularly.

Gaza (and the West Bank) last had elections 17 years ago. In Gaza, Hamas won that election and, following a civil war, executed many Fatah members and gay people. It rules by terror and has effectively left the people it supposedly represents in a permanent state of war and subjugation, by its refusal to cooperate in any meaningful way with Israel. Yet the 2m people in Gaza have no choice in the matter.

The term "fascist" is often defined as one that doesn't allow any opposition. Now, which one best fits that definition?
Click to expand...

Let’s set Palestine to one side though, Israel’s democracy is under severe threat from Netenyahu and his far right coalition.

In an attempt to escape his corruption charges, he’s launched a judicial coup, removing the independence of the Supreme Court and making it so that the ruling party can simply overrule them. He’s already used this to circumvent the law to allow the Shas leader Aryeh Deri to become a minister despite his fraud convictions which according to law should bar him from ministerial positions.

Making the judiciary subordinate to the ruling party completely undermines democracy and that’s why Israel has had so many huge protests against the government over the last 18 months while he forces through these changes.

There’s a lot of things people associate with fascism and Bibi is gradually checking off most of them - ultranationalism, militarism, expansion, the cult of the leader, undermining the media and judiciary, are all parts of it which is why so many Israelis think Netanyahu is a wannabe fascist.


If anything good can come out of the last weeks atrocities and the senseless death that is to come, hopefully it is the realisation by the majority of Israelis citizens that Netenyahus promise that his inhumane approach to Palestine is justified because it brings security and safety to Israelis on the border is a complete lie, and they finally oust him.

If that happens, we might actually inch closer to peace.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
You need to explain the full context of their beliefs, as many highlight them as 'anti-Zionist' without understanding that they are the ultimate zionists.

They're ultra-religious and believe the Old Testament is a literal, historically accurate document. They believe wholeheartedly and unquestioningly in a Jewish god. They're not the only religious Jews with those beliefs but NK extend that to not accepting that the (political) state of Israel exists because god didn't create it, man did. It never occurs to these cretins that the god they believe in and worship might have played some part in that, in the same way that they believe god stood aside during the Holocaust and only saved the people he wanted.

They believe in the coming of the Messiah and that this event only will restore Israel to the Jewish people. But their version of "Israel" isn't going to be anything like the one today, which is a multi-cultural democracy where you can choose to follow your religion, which might be Islam or Christianity. Their "Israel" is going to be one where you're either fully with them, believing in the bible as a literal document and living the way that belief demands.

Anyone who doesn't follow that line will be struck down by their god and, let's face it, if he can cause 6m Jews, many religious or even ultra-religious, to be murdered, he's not going to have a problem with striking down anyone else. And in case you think it doesn't bother you, because you live outside Israel, I've been neglectful in not pointing out that their "Israel" is the whole planet, not the strip of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. So they're not "anti-zionists" but are actually the most extreme zionists imaginable.

If you think these guys are heroes therefore, I'd suggest getting your black hats and tefillin (not today obviously as it's the Sabbath), growing your beards and payeh (sidelock), ditching the bacon butties and start learning Torah pretty quickly.
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Blimey Colin you make them sound like moderate dippers.
 
Metal Biker said:
Interesting how many media outlets refer to it as the Israel-Hamas War whilst the BBC calls it the "Israel-Gaza War". Just a little thing I noticed.
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In terms of international law you can’t declare war against a political party or organisation, only a state.

So I’m not sure either is correct, it should be Israeli-Palestine war.

But then people don’t want to drag the Weet Bank into it.
 
I like to think the majority of Israelis and Palestinians are good people. I respect the IDF who follow orders. However, until Hamas are destroyed and settlers are relocated from the occupied land there is no chance of peace.

There’s a lot of he said, she said, their fault, were angels but the illegal settlers killed the Oslo accords and are also responsible for a colossal loss of life.
 
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domalino said:
Let’s set Palestine to one side though, Israel’s democracy is under severe threat from Netenyahu and his far right coalition.

In an attempt to escape his corruption charges, he’s launched a judicial coup, removing the independence of the Supreme Court and making it so that the ruling party can simply overrule them. He’s already used this to circumvent the law to allow the Shas leader Aryeh Deri to become a minister despite his fraud convictions which according to law should bar him from ministerial positions.

Making the judiciary subordinate to the ruling party completely undermines democracy and that’s why Israel has had so many huge protests against the government over the last 18 months while he forces through these changes.

There’s a lot of things people associate with fascism and Bibi is gradually checking off most of them - ultranationalism, militarism, expansion, the cult of the leader, undermining the media and judiciary, are all parts of it which is why so many Israelis think Netanyahu is a wannabe fascist.


If anything good can come out of the last weeks atrocities and the senseless death that is to come, hopefully it is the realisation by the majority of Israelis citizens that Netenyahus promise that his inhumane approach to Palestine is justified because it brings security and safety to Israelis on the border is a complete lie, and they finally oust him.

If that happens, we might actually inch closer to peace.
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I absolutely agree with you about Netanyahu. A horrible, grubby, power-mad chancer and some of his allies are even worse. I've made no secret of my hatred for him. He must be delighted about the current situation although hopefully he'll pay the price after. The problem is the Israeli electoral system of course. As long as he leads his party and can cobble together a coalition, he'll be there or thereabouts.

But the paragraph I've highlighted could equally apply to the Gaza side, and the realisation by the people of Gaza that Hamas' inhumane approach is only bringing them misery and death. Because without that, Netanyahu and his far-right allies are deprived of much of their raison d'etre.
 
domalino said:
Let’s set Palestine to one side though, Israel’s democracy is under severe threat from Netenyahu and his far right coalition.

In an attempt to escape his corruption charges, he’s launched a judicial coup, removing the independence of the Supreme Court and making it so that the ruling party can simply overrule them. He’s already used this to circumvent the law to allow the Shas leader Aryeh Deri to become a minister despite his fraud convictions which according to law should bar him from ministerial positions.

Making the judiciary subordinate to the ruling party completely undermines democracy and that’s why Israel has had so many huge protests against the government over the last 18 months while he forces through these changes.

There’s a lot of things people associate with fascism and Bibi is gradually checking off most of them - ultranationalism, militarism, expansion, the cult of the leader, undermining the media and judiciary, are all parts of it which is why so many Israelis think Netanyahu is a wannabe fascist.


If anything good can come out of the last weeks atrocities and the senseless death that is to come, hopefully it is the realisation by the majority of Israelis citizens that Netenyahus promise that his inhumane approach to Palestine is justified because it brings security and safety to Israelis on the border is a complete lie, and they finally oust him.

If that happens, we might actually inch closer to peace.
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Agree with all of that. In addition protests against these policies of Netanyahu meant that many reservists were refusing to do their regular army service which undoubtedly added to the ease with which Hamas managed to commit their atrocities. The only way long term peace can be achieved is by the eradication of Hamas and the removal of Netanyahu and his ultra nationalist allies so that sane people can strike a deal for a two state solution. That’s what was nearly achieved in the late 90s but since the assassination of Rabin, death of Arafat and the incapacitation of Sharon there has been no one with sufficient credibility with enough people on either side to even start to push this through. In the meantime Israel has got more right wing aided by the ultra religious Zionist settler movement and ultra religious non-zionists that have secured exemption from army service in return for their government support. Meanwhile religious nutters on the Palestinian side have hijacked their cause with groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad having the biggest influence. Maybe this war will cause some sort of reset. It’s the best we can hope for but it doesn’t seem likely.
 
domalino said:
In terms of international law you can’t declare war against a political party or organisation, only a state.

So I’m not sure either is correct, it should be Israeli-Palestine war.

But then people don’t want to drag the Weet Bank into it.
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ISIS? Their "state" was never recognised by the UN.

Again, I'm just saying I found it interesting that others refer it one way and the BBC another.
 
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